Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 09-16-2013, 06:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Toto

You can see the history of edits to the wikipedia article on the Talk Page.

e.g:

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I am hesitant to remove material that cites sources I am unable to check but I agree that Sheriwn-White is used too much. I have a new book by Notre Dame university NT professor Candida Moss "The Myth of Persecution" (or via: amazon.co.uk) which discusses this Pliny/Trajan correspondence thoroughly, I quoted it twice already, I am tempted to remove a lot of the sources quoted and use that instead. Are you able to check the reference to the St. Croix, G.E.M (Nov 1963) article "Why Were the Early Christians Persecuted?" cited? It is behind a very expensive paywall. It is used to cite the statement " the persecution of Christians was not a systematic empire-wide pogrom ordered by any emperor prior to Emperor Domitian". I feel this must be a mistake, Domitian was Emperor from 81 -96. Moss says "prior to 250 there was no legislation in place that required Christians to do anything that might lead them to die" and this is in reference to a decree of the Emperor Decius, not Domitian. Thanks.Smeat75 (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I would be interested in what Candida Moss says about the evidence.

ETA, from the Amazon link, Moss accepts the letter as genuine - it doesn't make any really outrageous claims about Christians.

I'm amused to see that Wikipedia is as bad as ever. Some evidently polemical book is enough to delete all previous scholarship? dear me.

If Moss really says that, and really believes that no legislation existed prior to 250, she is very ignorant. Tertullian tells us ca. 193 AD that the pagans jeered at the Christians, "non licet esse vos"; "you are not allowed to exist!" I think Justin Martyr would be amused to hear that his execution for being a Christian was not based on any "legislation".

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan · 09-16-2013, 03:56 PM

Detering has a book out showing that Folio Ten is a forgery, he says, but it's in German.

Sheshbazzar · 09-16-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I think Justin Martyr would be amused to hear that his execution for being a Christian was not based on any "legislation".

Perhaps Justin Martyr would be even more amused to find out that he was executed.

Don't believe everything Christian 'history' tells you.

Toto · 09-16-2013, 05:05 PM

There is a reference here to Detering "Farewell to Pliny" in a post from Michael Sympson

Quote:

The first witness to give us a quote from Pliny’s letter is the Church father Tertullian in 192 AD. St Jerome later referred to the same quote yet phrased it differently. It is Jerome’s phrasing that we see repeated by witnesses of later periods – all of them refer to Jerome as their only source, but never to Pliny’s letter directly. Surprisingly Jerome’s phrasing is the exact same phrasing we read in the current text of Pliny’s letter. So has Tertullian simply misquoted? Then how can we explain that Jerome insists he had never seen an original copy of Pliny’s letters and was using Tertullian as his only reference? (Detering Farewell to Pliny, 2012) Fishy, to say the least and not at all helped by the fact that of Pliny’s collection the tenth book had been discovered separately from the rest by one of the notorious manuscript hunters and forgers of the Renaissance, the monk, theologian, antiquarian and architect Fra Giocondo. Once in print the ”original” manuscript disappeared and was never seen or heard of again ever since.

Pliny published his letters in nine books. Book ten was published posthumously. Centuries later the writer Sidonius Apollinaris in Gaul (430 – 487) still knew only of nine books.

Current editions of Book ten contain one hundred-seven letters with rescripts by Trajan’s secretary scribbled into the margin. Some, if not all of the letters must be pseudo-epigraphs.

...

As usually forgeries tangle with other forgeries: the forger of Pliny's letter states that the Christians in the small towns of Bithynia had become so numerous that it required executions on the spot and the extradition of Christians with Roman citizenship to the courts in Rome. But in Antioch, the largest Roman city in Asia Minor, of that allegedly numerous Christian crowds, only the bishop was arrested and deported to Rome. Although escorted by ten soldiers Bishop Ignatius still found the time to write letters to the parishes along his way, which also passed through Bithynia. That, if nothing else, should have provided the precedent Pliny needed for his information about due process against Christians. He never heard of it.

There is more there - Sympson indicates he is still undecided. It's not clear who would bother to forge the massive number of routine administrative communications in Book 10. At the end, his gut feeling is that the letter in genuine, in spite of the misgivings.

Toto · 09-16-2013, 05:10 PM

Also - some youtube videos from "Hannibal the Victor"? arguing for inauthenticity.

Minimalist · 09-16-2013, 06:21 PM

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because the picture of Christians is too positive,

I just don't consider this "positive."

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Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

What xtian forger would write this? A xtian forger, especially from the 4/5th century would mimic the party line that good xtians willingly died for their godboy. If that's "positive" what would be "negative?"

mountainman · 09-16-2013, 07:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Minimalist

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because the picture of Christians is too positive,

I just don't consider this "positive."

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Those who denied that they were or had been Christians .... cursed Christ.

What xtian forger would write this? A xtian forger, especially from the 4/5th century would mimic the party line that good xtians willingly died for their godboy. If that's "positive" what would be "negative?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Sympson

From the beginning Giono's contemporaries expressed their misgivings, but there are also to consider some less tangible aspects: who would spend all this time and energy to forge the boring exchange between two bureaucrats? Forging a book like the Annals is fun, we still do this sort of thing, Gore Vidal has written an "autobiography" of Emperor Julian, but one hundred six administrative memos? Who could have been so desperate? Then again, not so long ago somebody forged Hitler's diaries, a tedious and extremely vacuous exercise but the press was only too willing to lap it up and pay big bucks. Money is a strong motive.

As the saying goes money speaks many languages.

As far as Latin forgery mills go 9th century Pseudo-Isidore should be investigated in order to determine whether any complicity may exist.

The whole point of the exercise is to examine the detailed intricacies of the manuscript tradition for the existence of Pliny Book 10.

Here's a link to Detering's 2011 book using google translate:

False Witnesses: Besides Jesus Christian testimonies to the test by Hermann Detering (Paperback - September 2011)

Toto · 09-16-2013, 07:35 PM

Adieu Plinius in German

Toto · 09-16-2013, 07:42 PM

The point of this thread is to consider Robert M Price's claim that this letter is an obvious forgery. The manuscript tradition might be a part of this, but it seems consistent with authenticity, or a forgery in early times, or later.

Critical opinion is more varied than I expected.

mountainman · 09-16-2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Adieu Plinius in German

Via google translate (towards the end) ...

Quote:

What now followed was a detailed study of the textual history of the 10th Band of Pliniusbriefe, in which the two bonds are present Christen. As a result, the suspicion of falsity not only confirmed, but became a solid certainty. Not only the two Christians letters proved later counterfeiting, the whole 10 Band of Pliny-Trajan correspondence was suspected of forgery. The suspicion was so new and not in the rest of the correspondence of critical contemporaries was already expressed at the first appearance. The only surviving manuscript was before 16 Century still unknown and was only moved to the beginning of the alerten Dominican monk, engineer and antiquary, Fra Giocondo to light at once to disappear into oblivion. It is still regarded as lost, in truth, it appears to have never existed.

Anyone who wants to learn more about the adventurous story of the two "Christians letters" and the other "classic" Jesus testimonies, read about it in detail in my book:

"False witnesses. Except Jesus Christian testimonies to the test. "

It is to appear in September 2011 in Alibri-Verlag.

The book was originally intended as an introduction of a Jesus book. During the work it became an independent monograph. It is currently the only book by a German theologian, which will deal exclusively with the issue of non-Christian Jesus certificates. In contrast to some Anglo-Saxon predecessors, I am, however, comes after a thorough examination of the six classical witnesses in all cases a negative result.

At the end, the sober balance that with their help, neither the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth nor the existence of early Christianity in the first Century can be proved.

So not only Adieu, Pliny! but also: Adieu, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Mara bar Serapion and thallus!

Elsewhere (in other arguments painting his picture) Detering seems to rely on archaeological records of Christians c.180 CE.

Does anyone know what archaeology this is?

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09-16-2013, 03:56 PM	#12
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Detering has a book out showing that Folio Ten is a forgery, he says, but it's in German.

09-16-2013, 05:10 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Also - some youtube videos from "Hannibal the Victor"? arguing for inauthenticity.

09-16-2013, 07:35 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Adieu Plinius in German

09-16-2013, 07:42 PM	#19
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The point of this thread is to consider Robert M Price's claim that this letter is an obvious forgery. The manuscript tradition might be a part of this, but it seems consistent with authenticity, or a forgery in early times, or later. Critical opinion is more varied than I expected.

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