outhouse

its way "past" the point of needed

Adam

Shesh's #74 is more worthy of a reply than his later posts and even bears some relevance to the thread. (Stange that one should have to defend on FRDB one's right to be reasonable and scholarly HJ against the BJ and MJ largely rejected by reason and scholarship.)

Here's the relevance of my listing and/or posting large numbers of verses. This pericope is paralleled in Matthew, but with such close verbal exactness that I put it in q2. It came to both gospels from a written Greek text, leaving uncertain whether it was originally in Aramaic. If not, it may not have been early. In Gospel Eyewitnesses I did not include this among the seven written eyewitnesses to Jesus. Currently I am planning to include q2 in the second pass in this current thread Gospel Eyewitness Sources, as I am still deliberating its origin. I keep a running dialogue with myself in my thread

Splicing Q and gJohn (see for example posts 17, 18, and 19)
q2 may have been from Peter, as his name occurs at Luke 12:41. I have been saying instead that it may come from a disciple of John the Baptist I call the Qumraner. So including all q2 seems best, let people make up their own minds. I should not slant everything in my direction of denying that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet. On the other hand, I am not feeling obligated to defend every word in q2.
What, I'm supposed to defend Peter supposedly saying in Acts 4:12,
"For only in Him is there salvation, for of all the names in the world givento men, this is the only one by which we can be saved." Junk like that got me started 50 years ago starting from scratch with just Jesus and building up from what High Criticism best indicated that Jesus himself really said. I started with gMark and built up with Q etc.
(When I built up to where I could even accept gJohn, I realized that Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants in effect deny the Trinity. Whether one believes in Jesus the man or not is a minor thing compared to whether he is also God the Son, the Judge of all men in His own right. God will judge humans on His own terms, not by the accident of what country someone happens to be born in.)I honor Paul's writing for pastoral theology primarily. I didn't originally like him at all, but I find a lot of good stuff there now.

Sheshbazzar

Of course not actually being a Christian or upholding the NT texts you can just toss out whatever verses disagree with your personal theory. How convenient.

You can get away with it here, but in most of the Christian church's I have attended anyone known to be openly rejecting the integrity of the NT texts and their universal application to all believers alike, would be rebuked and shown the door.

You may get away with calling yourself a 'baptized in the spirit Christian' in this place, but several hundred million Bible believing Christians upon hearing your selective rejection, and 'cut and paste' of the NT texts would state that you are nothing more than a thief, a self-serving deceiver, and a liar.




.

Sheshbazzar

It would make a lot more sense than pretending that 'only in the theories Adam the Internet poster, out of all the names and theories given among men, is the only one which men should accept, or by which men can be saved.'

Adam, outside of that tiny little world which he has created within his egotistically inflated and self-centered noggin, is not at all that important to the world at large.
In a few short years he will be just another dead nobody, one whose abstruse, complex, and constantly shifting textual speculations will die with him and soon be consigned along with other such trash to the garbage dumps of human history.
And the world will move on, much the better for his passing. A nice eulogy to inherit.

Adam

That was my #57. Now we know why Shesh wouldn't answer. Almost as bad as Sotto Voce, he has his Appalachian backwoods definition of "Christian" that doesn't apply anywhere else in the world, particularly not among the mainline churches that prevail throughout North America and Europe. (I became Episcopalian in 1992 and ELCA Lutheran in 2004. I have never been a conservative Protestant, and havn't believed since I was 12 anything like Shesh would have me believe.)

Sheshbazzar

As far as my 'Appalachian backwoods' background, I moved to these Appalachian foothills only 7 years ago.
What I learned of Christianity, I did not learn in these Appalachian hills. I packed it up brought it here with me from הקהל אשר ליהוה ביד־יהושע מלך כל־ישראל׃

Indeed, although I have many church attending and staunch 'Christian' family members in these hills, including first cousins whom are long established Protestant pastors and whom live close by, [-my property is directly across the road on the West side of a church pastored by one of my kin-] and I have been repeatedly invited and pressured to attend their Sunday 'services' on occasions now beyond number, I have never set foot over any of their thresholds to join in any of their forms of apostate and degenerate christian demon worship. My conscience forbids. It is truly a 'road' that ethically speaking, is not ever to be crossed.

Have my views on these so called 'mainline' "Christian" church's ever been obscure?
Then allow me to here address that subject yet again, as you seem to have missed it.

The so called 'mainline Protestant church's' -every last one of them- are the apostate and degenerate 'harlot' daughter whores of that fornicating Great Whore church based in Rome.
Every single one of these 'protestant' church's was conceived in her bed, and in their turns have committed the same spiritual whoredoms as their whoring Mother before them.
They take the up the false name, and the emblem of her idol and likewise go out and seduce men on every street corner, saying; 'Come, get into bed with us'.
Both Catholicism, and ALL Protestant 'Christian' denominations are bound into bundles for the day that they be cast into the Pit together and burned up.
There is no redeeming nor correcting of this accursed cherem Babylonian religion. ALL of it is to be brought down to the Pit, and destroyed from the face of the earth.
The only thing honest men of any integrity can do, is GET OUT! of any entanglements with any form or fashion of 'christianity', and put it all far behind them before day of the Harlot and her whoring daughter's being exposed to their appointed open shame and public destruction.
If you bear her name, and her well known mark, and serve her Nehushtan snake-on-a-stick idol, you will go where she and her whoring daughters are appointed to go.

It won't matter one whit in that day, how much conniving religious horse shit you have been able to fashion.




You boast of your 'conversions' and denomination hopping's of 1992 and 2004. I have been a member of only ONE Assembly and ONE congregation since one day in 1976, and I always will be.


.

Adam

(Continued from Post #1; Selection #2. The final paragraph is part of my argument that Simon son of Cleopas wrote "L")
For this second pass through of Gospel Eyewitnesses not already listed in Early Aramaic Gospels, the Lucan selections from Special Luke shown bracketed likely were in Aramaic as well, but the Lucan passages from q2 (in regular type) were already in Greek. Ellipses represent filler material. The Marcan passages are from an Ur-Marcus already in Greek before it was taken into Mark or Luke. Similarly, the first 12 chapters here from John are from the Signs Source (by Andrew) already in Greek probably from the first. John 13 and thereafter here I attribute to the Apostle John himself. Certain uniquely Matthean sections are included where the content is paralleled in the Gospel of Thomas or even where the Jesus Seminar affirmed them as from Jesus.

Luke 5:
[1* While the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he was standing by the lake of Gennesaret. 2 And he saw two boats by the lake; but the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. 3* Getting into one of the boats, which was Simons, he asked him to put out a little from the land. And he sat down and taught the people from the boat. 4 And when he had ceased speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch." 5* And Simon answered, "Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets." 6 And when they had done this, they enclosed a great shoal of fish; and as their nets were breaking, 7 they beckoned to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." 9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid; henceforth you will be catching men." 11 And when they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him.]

Mark 1:
21 And they went into Caperna-um; and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. 23* And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; 24* and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God." 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" 26 And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, "What is this? A new teaching! With authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him." 28 And at once his fame spread everywhere throughout all the surrounding region of Galilee.
Luke 5:

[17 One day, while he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting nearby (they had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem); and the power of the Lord was with him to heal.*]
John 5:
S 1…Jesus went up into Jerusalem….5 And a certain man there, having (been) in his illness thirty-eight years. 6 Jesus, seeing this man lying there, and knowing that he already has (been ill) much time, says to him, “Do you want to become well?” 7 Answered him the sick man, “Lord, I do not have a man, that whenever the water is stirring, he may threw me into the pool. And while I am coming, another goes down before me.” 8 Jesus says to him, “Arise pick up your bed and walk.” 9 The man becomes well, and picked up his bed and walked.

Mark 2:
17 When Jesus heard this, he said to them, ‘Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.’
18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people* came and said to him, ‘Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?’ 19 Jesus said to them, ‘The wedding-guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast on that day.
21 ‘No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak; otherwise, the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.’*

Luke 5:
[39And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, “The old is good.”]
Mark 2:
23 One sabbath he was going through the cornfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?’ 25 And he said to them, ‘Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? 26 He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions.’ 27 Then he said to them, ‘The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.’

17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." 18* Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" 19 And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20* The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day. 21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; if he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but new wine is for fresh skins." * 23* * One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26* how he entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?" 27* And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath."

Mark 3:
1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, ‘Come forward.’ 4 Then he said to them, ‘Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?’ But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, ‘Stretch out your hand.’ He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Luke 6:
24 "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation. 25 "Woe to you that are full now, for you shall hunger.” Woe to you that laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. 26 "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.
36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37* "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38* give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back." 39* He also told them a parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40* A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher. 41* Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

Matthew 7:
6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not cast your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they may trample them under their feet, and then, turning, they may tear you apart.

Matthew 13:
24 He proposed another parable to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while the men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds amid the wheat, and then went away. 26 And when the plants had grown, and had produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the servants of the Father of the family, approaching, said to him: ‘Lord, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how is it that it has weeds?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘A man who is an enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Is it your will that we should go and gather them up?’ 29 And he said: ‘No, lest perhaps in gathering the weeds, you might also root out the wheat together with it. 30 Permit both to grow until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest, I will say to the reapers: Gather first the weeds, and bind them into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather into my storehouse.’ ”

44 The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field. When a man finds it, he hides it, and, because of his joy, he goes and sells everything that he has, and he buys that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking good pearls. 46 Having found one pearl of great value, he went away and sold all that he had, and he bought it. 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net cast into the sea, which gathers together all kinds of fish. 48 When it has been filled, drawing it out and sitting beside the shore, they selected the good into vessels, but the bad they threw away. 49 So shall it be at the consummation of the age. The Angels shall go forth and separate the bad from the midst of the just.

Luke 7:
[11 Soon afterward he went to a city called Na'in, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him. 12 As he drew near to the gate of the city, behold, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a large crowd from the city was with her. 13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her and said to her, "Do not weep." 14 And he came and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, "Young man, I say to you, arise." 15 And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And he gave him to his mother. 16 Fear seized them all; and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and "God has visited his people!" 17 And this report concerning him spread through the whole of Judea and all the surrounding country.]

18* The disciples of John told him of all these things. 19 And John, calling to him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, "Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?" 20 And when the men had come to him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, 'Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?" 21* In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were blind he bestowed sight. 22* And he answered them, "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 23 And blessed is he who takes no offense at me." 24 When the messengers of John had gone, he began to speak to the crowds concerning John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to behold? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 What then did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously appareled and live in luxury are in kings' courts. 26 What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27* This is he of whom it is written, 'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.' 28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29* (When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.) 31 "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the market place and calling to one another, 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not weep.' 33* For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine; and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34* The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children."

[36 One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house, and took his place at table. 37 And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, 38 and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." 40 And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?" 41 "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" 50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."]

Sheshbazzar

Nothing you have copied and pasted here is any evidence for any of the imaginative claims you are making.

You must be really desperate for attention, to feel a need to continue spamming this forum in this manner.

If it possessed any real value you would be arguing its merits to an audience of christian scholars in some other forum.

Adam

Yeah, kick the can down the road.
No one here on FRDB has come up with any substantive refutation of my theses, nor have I been referred to any academic that has a case against me. "The buck stops here" does not apply here, in spite of all the pretensions I used to hear here from Joe Wallack and such.

Atheists were coming over to Christian websites with their dogmatic claim that there are no eyewitnesses to Jesus, so I returned the favor by coming over here and showing that there are seven such written eyewitness records. You're admitting that all atheists have failed and there are no further atheists to appeal to? I'm supposed to go to some unnamed "audience of christian scholars in some other forum"? I don't even know if you mean by "Christian scholars" the apologists who like you would not recognize me as a Christian or that I am supposed to find some scholarly forum where merely having two master's degrees would be insufficient to be allowed to post?
Here's the ultimate thesis:
Gospel Eyewitnesses Post #450

and the concluding episode of the basic seven listing the prior six:
Post #170

Huon

The seven eyewitnesses invoked by Adam are Andrew, John Mark, Peter, Matthew, Nicodemus, Simeon, and John.

But who can bring a testimony that they knew Jesus ? They have been dead long ago. The only one who could speak for them is Jesus, who is immortal.

So, why not summon Jesus before a judge, and ask Him ? When He has spoken, the testimony of the acknowledged witnesses will be a good proof of the acts ascribed to Jesus, and Adam will be happy.