mountainman

Thanks Iskander, but I am an infidel.

And this is just the tip of an iceberg.

Thanks also Tanya. Slowly the big picture is emerging from the bits of the jig saw puzzle.



Point taken Shesh.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

tanya

Hi Pete, Sorry to be repeating myself, but this is ANOTHER, really excellent thread, outstanding job....don't know if it will reach 1000 replies, unless stephan submits another 600, but, it is genuinely interesting, provocative, skillfully researched, and "scholarly", to exhaust all the big words in my limited vocabulary.

How did you find those spectacular images of Codex Vaticanus????

Wonderful.. Gosh I wish I could write like that, so clear....Vaticanus is really tremendous. What a wonderful creation.

To your question:

NO. Mark 5:12 does not use the word daimon. Instead, if you look back at Mark 5:1, the troupe is leaving by boat, to get to the other side of Lake Galilee, and, on disembarking from the boat, they meet a "crazy" man (in Greek, a man with "an unclean" pneumati), who was unable to be restrained even by chains. His name is familiar to forum members:
λεγιὼν ὄνομα μοι, LegionOnomaMoi. His name implies "many unclean spirits", just as a legion is a large body of soldiers.

So, he asks Jesus, who can silence even the wind (Mark 4:39), (i.e. Jesus is a deity who can control even the forces of nature) to please NOT compel their departure from the area.

The relevant Greek words are:

και παρεκαλεϲαν ...........................Plural, They asked (begged) Mark 5:12 as you have illustrated in your lovely Vaticanus (also seen in Sinaiticus)

However, please note, two lines earlier: in Mark 5:10
καὶ παρεκάλει ..............................Singular, He asked (begged)

So, the man, not a demon, not multiple unclean spirits, but a human, a person, asked Jesus for help. The text explains that this man had been possessed by unclean spirits, NOT "demons". It is interesting in that regard, with respect to your OP, to note that Jerome's Latin Vulgate has (for Mark 5:12):
nota bene: spiritus, not daemons,

BUT, here's the monkey wrench:
excerpt of Byzantine majority text for Mark 5:12:


So, in summary, we began with crossing the lake, by boat, then we meet a crazy guy who is so strong that he can break steel chains, nothing can bind him, except, Jesus, who is so strong that even the ocean waves must obey him, and then this crazy guy, a human, (not a god, not a demon, not a supernatural entity), with multiple personality disorder, asks Jesus, singular, for help, and then, Jesus drives all the bad spirits out of the man, into the pigs waiting nearby ....

That's the original version. Then the Byzantines "cleaned" up the singular/plural nonsense, by changing the story from ἄνθρωπος to δαιμονες (from man, anthropos to demons).

I stopped dropping bread crumbs, back at the story of how the wind ceased blowing, upon Jesus' command......No wonder Hollywood movies have so many fables about undead returning to life, zombies, and vampires. Folks appear quite gullible, about such fantasies, and apparently have been for thousands of years.

spin

When you compare Iranian and Hindu traditions, starting with two groups of supernatural beings the devas (daevas) and the asuras (ahuras), In India the devas were the good ones, while in Iran the ahuras were. They differentiated contrarily.

Toto

That must have been the most incompetent group of conspirators ever. They couldn't get their stories straight. They couldn't agree on when Jesus was born, or what day of the week he died, or a few other key points.

andrewcriddle

Readings of Vaticanus


Matthew 8:31 daimon
Mark 5:12 word not present
Luke 8:29 daimonion

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

Well at the rate you're going it will a thousand lifetimes before you emerge with anything to convict Constantine of inventing Christianity from scratch and attracting anything but know-nothings to your teachings.

mountainman

Thanks again Andrew. How then does the Blueletter Bible return instances of "daimon" at Mark 5:12 and Luke 8:29? Which version (or translation) of the Greek does the Blueletter Bible employ?

If I wanted to check what codex Sinaticus or Alexandrinus (or in fact all readings of the available evidence) attests to, are there in existence any concordances for these three verses.

Has anyone collected all variant readings from all the Greek sources and indexed them with annotations?




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

Well if we were to use Vaticanus as a source, from what has been discovered above, we have only Matthew (at 8:31) who uses "daimon". This therefore does not support the idea of a conspiracy, involving three gospel authors.

The question has become why does the Blueletter Bible cite three instances of the word, and what Greek text underlies this citation.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

Thanks for this Tanya. It would appear that those who had control of the so-called "Holy Writ" of the Holy Roman Christian empire made some fine tuning adjustments to the text for reasons which are not immediately obvious to us looking at it over a thousand years later.

So far only Matthew has been attested via Vaticanus to have used the Greek term "daimon", but some further questions have been raised, the most obvious being what Greek text does the Blueletter bible use in order to return three instances of use as outlined in the OP.

The thick plottens.




I provided the links to the pages in Vaticanus above. Then used "PRINT SCREEN" and pasted the page into mspaint.
From there I just selected the required verse and deleted the rest to save the image of the verse.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

The OP is a few steps removed from any such purpose. The OP was raised in order to understand how the Greek authors of the new testament treated the Greek term "daimon". Various questions remain.

My questions are not teachings they are questions. It seems to me that there are many people who THINK THEY KNOW who wrote the Greek NT, and when this happened, and why and how this happened. In fact, is there not an entire world-wide industry based on the teachings of Christian Bible Colleges and Theological Seminaries, through which those who would become Doctors of Theology, priests, ministers, rabbis and other assorted titles, are inculcated to the hegemon. These people are the know-it-alls, because they have been meticulously packed solid with church propaganda.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia