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03-03-2013, 09:06 PM | #11 | |
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"Kimono, kimono, kimono. Ha! Of course! Kimono is come from the Greek word himona, is mean winter. So, what do you wear in the wintertime to stay warm? A robe. You see: robe, 'kimono'. There you go!" :facepalm: Pass the Windex. |
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03-03-2013, 09:33 PM | #12 | |||||||
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Daimon / Demon / Daemon are just different Latin transliterations of the Greek. The spelling change is not meaningful. Quote:
http://www.plotinus.com/the_daemon_copy.htm Quote:
It's been a while since I read the Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy. They are big on connecting ideas like this from classical Greek philosophy with the gnostics. You might check their books. |
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03-03-2013, 11:01 PM | #13 | ||
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But I think Acton may have been referring to fact that the earliest new testament bibles were authored and published in the Greek language and that the ideas there presented, whether original or simply "borrowed" from the [Greek classical] intellectual milieu of antiquity, are foundational in much of the English language. |
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03-04-2013, 12:58 AM | #14 | |||||||||
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The purpose therefore may have been to replace the individual pagan idea of the "daimon" with a franchised mass media version "Holy Spirit" that was popularised in the new testament by the gospel authors and the author of acts. Quote:
No way. Quote:
But the meaning of the words at one stage were quite suddenly perceived in a different way as a direct result of the meaning of the word in the NT, and this subverted meaning has been with us until only just recently. Quote:
An interesting and pertinent article thanks very much. I'll have a closer look at it later. Quote:
It's not just the gnostics. The Platonists are also central to the story here. The gnostics are not yet properly defined yet probably include Platonists. Many of the Nag Hammadi texts exhibit late Platonist (i.e. Plotinus) ideas. The rise of the integration of Platonic and Christian thought in the 4th century was meteoric. Augustine, finds that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity." One of these few words needing change may have been "daimon". It was one of the central Platonic concepts used to join man to the god(s). This was demonised by the gospel authors and became heresy. Or at least it was associated with "bad demons" fit for swine. Into its place the Christians moved the "Holy Spirit" of Jesus. Viola! One small step for Jesus; a giant leap for Christendom over the Platonists. BTW I don't know whether Augustine mentions these "few words and phrases" which needed to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity. Do you, or does anyone else, know a) whether Augustine cites them b) what they might be Thanks for the link. |
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03-04-2013, 01:25 AM | #15 | ||
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You quote traces back to Saint Augustine "Against the Academicians: (Contra academicos)" An English translation is online at http://archive.org/details/ancientchristian027820mbp I did a quick search, and did not find anything. I think that the quote you have may have been a summary made by a later commentator, and that Augustine did not make a list of words and phrases. |
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03-04-2013, 02:32 PM | #16 | |||
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It was Hellenic pride to look down upon every other human culture as being inferior and barbaric. Nothing originated in other cultures could possibly be as good as the Greek, and anything that could be learned or accepted from these inferior cultures could only be improved upon by Greeks using the Greek language, philosophy, and wisdom. Thus it was not only the new testament, but long before that, The TaNaKa in being 'translated' into Greek underwent the 'improvements' of Hellenization. And because it was adapted to Greek tongue and thought, the LXX was considered to be an improvement upon the ancient barbaric Hebrew language text. Hebrew names were regarded as barbaric, being difficult to write with the Greek alphabet and hard pronounce, so the first thing was to swap out those barbaric Hebrew names and replace them with 'civilized' and easier to pronounce Greek forms. Then there were all of those 'foreign' religious terms that were in these Hebrew texts, words like 'El' and 'Elohim', so uncivilized and barbaric sounding, The Greek 'Theos' must be superior, because Greek is superior. (or so they thought) The Hebrew Sheol 'the grave', got 'improved' upon by becoming the much better known Greek Hades (with all of the Greek connotations of fiery torture) But that didn't bother Greek religious philosophers and leaders a bit because it allowed them to make even further Greek 'improvements' upon that old 'barbarian' Hebrew religion. And on and on and on in a thousand subtle ways the proud and arrogant Hellas 'Gus Portokalos's' of that age created for themselves a strange new Hellenistic 'christos' mystery religion. One that despised everything that was Hebrew or 'Jewish'. And the next step was to demonise anything that favored Jewish words, thought, expression, or practice as being 'Judaizing'. Then came the issuing of draconian 'Official Decrees' and 'Laws' requiring the immediate execution of, and the confiscation of their property by the church, of anyone caught being a 'Judaiser'. This how the catholic christian religion got to where it is today. Hellenism was the Beast from the Pit that the Great Whore of Babylon rode upon then, and still is today. |
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03-04-2013, 07:01 PM | #17 | |||
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Fair enough but I am not so sure for the moment. It appears to be an absolutely indespensible concept in the theological systems of not just the Greeks in all their schools (Platonists, Stoic, Pythagorean etc) but also with other systems of theology such as Manichaenism and perhaps Zorastianism. I have not yet looked at Hinduism or Buddhism or Judaism so I have no idea. Quote:
One possibility I can envisage is that this statement of Augustine concerns the Trinitarian "Father Son Holy Ghost" formulation which was powerfully supported by the Emperor Theodosius c.381 CE. If we instead go back to the Trinitarian "One Spirit Soul" formulation of Plato and later Plotinus (via the Enneads) then it is not difficult to change the Platonic trinity to the Christian trinity at the top level. Underpinning the Platonic trinity is a detailed structure of related ideas that are capable of being summarised. This is also true for the Christian Trinity which has borrowed from the great wealth of Platonist philosophy to redefine the entire universe by means of a monotheistic book god Jesus, the son of the Father and the progenitor of the Holy Spirit. So Augustine may have had the Trinitarian system in mind when he made the statement that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity." FYI this reference was found in "The Legacy of Greece - Oxford University Press (1921)". Here are my notes FWIW: Quote:
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03-04-2013, 08:02 PM | #18 | |||
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Secondly this tangentiation has resulted from a quote from Acton, who was I believe a well read person. I thibk his reverence for the Greek comes from the best that the Greek civilisation had to offer the world, which was put to the sword by the Roman Christian Emperors and suppressed for a thousand years. Here is another quote from Acton about doing history. Perhaps you might comment on this. Quote:
What does the first line mean? What does he mean by Hole and Corner Buffery? I suspect he means get rid of prejudice but I am only guessing. Best wishes |
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03-04-2013, 08:25 PM | #19 | |
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The following has been extracted from the above link. As yet I have no idea whether the references are to be found in the sources. References to the Greek "daimon" [δαίμων] in the Gnostics the Testimony of Truth, Jesus advises a disciple to become "a disciple of his own higher mind," and continues to say that one’s higher mind is "the father of Truth." The Gnostic sage Silvanus encourages his disciples in this way: “Knock on yourself as upon a door and walk upon yourself as on a straight road. For, if you walk on the road, it is impossible for you to go astray. Open the door for yourself so that you may know what is.” Plato teaches: "We should think of the most authoritative part of the Soul as a Guardian given by God which lifts us to our heavenly home." Valentinus, a gnostic sage who lived in Alexandria explains that a person receives Gnosis from their Guardian Angel, or Daemon but that this angelic being is actually the seeker's own Higher Self or Soul. In ancient Egypt the Daemon had for millennia been pictured as a Heavenly Twin of the eidolon. gnostic Acts of John, John observes that Jesus sometimes held conversations with a Heavenly Twin who descended to join him: He says: “When all of us, his disciples, were sleeping in one house at Gennesaret, I alone, The Pistis Sophia relates a charming myth of the child Jesus meeting his own Heavenly Twin for the first time. His mother Mary recalls: “When you were a child, before the Spirit had descended upon you, when you were in the vineyard with Joseph, the Spirit came down from the height, and came unto me in the house, like unto thee, and I knew Him not, but thought that he was you. And he said unto me, "Where is Jesus, my brother, that I may go to meet him?" Mary relates to Jesus that when his Twin finally found him, "He embraced you and kissed you, and you also did kiss him and you became one and the same being." The Gnostic Valentinus writes: When the human self and the divine "I" are interconnected they can achieve perfection and eternity. Valentinus puts it like this: “Although it appears as if each person has their own Daïmon or Higher Self, the enlightened initiate discovers that actually on the axial Pole of Being there is one Daïmon shared by all, a universal Self, which inhabits every being. Each Soul is a part of the one Soul of God. To know oneself therefore is to know God. The Pagan sage Sextus writes: "If you would know Him by whom you were made, you would know yourself." References to the Greek "daimon" [δαίμων] in the Church Fathers Irenaeus relates that the Gnostic "believes himself to be neither in heaven nor on earth, but to have embraced his Guardian Angel." Clement writes: "It is the greatest of all disciplines to know oneself; for when a man knows himself, he knows God." Clement taught his Christian initiates to "practice being God" and that the true Gnostic had "already met God. |
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03-04-2013, 08:52 PM | #20 | |
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It looks as though the Gnostics simply continued with the original Greek world-view in which the INDIVIDUAL "daimon" or "Guardian Spirit" was treated as a god, a goddess or an inferior deity, whether good or bad. Some even thought the individual "daimon" was universal.
The universal spirit of the Greeks and Gnostics (and others) was about to be replaced with a Christianized version. The Gospel authors used the term "daimon" in a derogatory sense that it was always a bad spirit (demon). The gospel authors narrate that Jesus sent the "daimon" into a herd of swine. After Jesus ascended through the cloudbanks of Jerusalem, a new form of "Holy Spirit" was released into the world to replace the "daimon" which the Gospel writers had sent into the swine. The difference between "daimon" and "demon" is clear today. Quote:
It would appear that the original meaning of the term "daimon" was cast aside by the Gospel authors, but that those who are termed the Gnostics continued with the old [Classical Greek] meaning. When the orthodox canonical Christians finally killed off the heretical non canonical gnostics the original knowledge and use of the term "daimon" was lost for a long period of time. |
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