Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James The Least · 06-14-2013, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
I believe that "Mark's" Jesus Passion is patterned after David of the Jewish Bible and note the parallels to David's "baptism" story:

[T2]
#|
"Mark"|
I Samuel|
Commentary||
1|
1:9 "And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan."|
16:12 "And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look upon. And Jehovah said, Arise, anoint him; for this is he. Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren"|
Both are baptized as part of a group and God chooses the one.||
2|
1:10 "And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him"|
16:13 "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of Jehovah came mightily upon David from that day forward"|
The Spirit comes upon David/Jesus||
3|
1:13 "And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan"|
17:16 "And the Philistine drew near morning and evening, and presented himself forty days."|
The hero is tempted for 40 days by Satan/Goliath
||
4|
1:13 "And he was with the wild beasts"|
17:34 "Thy servant was keeping his father`s sheep; and when there came a lion, or a bear"|
With the wild beasts
||
5|
1:23 "And straightway there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit"|
16:14 "Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him"|
The evil spirit presents a challenge
||
6|
1:26 "And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him."|
16:23 "David took the harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him"|
Exorcism of the evil spirit
||
[/T2]

In "Mark's" Theology/Theme the Passion is what's important so "Mark's" Jesus is baptized mainly for the Passion Ministry and not the Teaching/Healing Ministry.

Bonus material for Solo = "Matthew" "saw" the source for "Mark's" Jesus' baptism and included the setting for the Temptation and the fate of Jesus' competition. Can you flesh it out?

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Excellent, Joe. 1 Samuel is undoubtedly the source for this pericope.

James The Least · 06-14-2013, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

I have yet to see an argument against its authenticity that does not seem to rest on anti-Christian presuppositions.

That might be an interesting problem, but I don't see how it constitutes a problem for authenticity.

Perhaps.

Are you aware of any other reference to the practice of baptism in Antiquities, specifically one for the remission of sin?

Brilliant point. :notworthy:

outhouse · 06-14-2013, 08:07 PM

I think a good point is those who did not live in a place where one could have or use a mikvah.

Dunking in the river seems like a good replacement for the poor, even if it goes against the law of those who were rich enough to have or afford a mikvah.

I think it is hilarious to watch people spinning their wheels trying so hard to to try and dig all of the NT stories out of the OT just because they used the OT as a foundation for belief of their mythology. Parallels, oh sure plenty, but not everything.

Toto · 06-14-2013, 08:17 PM

From here

Quote:

As for the availability of the Mikvah:

..

Private houses had a mikvah built in. Probably only the rich and middle class could afford those. But there were also communal mikvahs, and the temple mikvahs. Can't really know how many mikvahs there were, but looking at how many have been found, I'd guess there were enough around to seriously dent the idea that "In the time of Jesus people generally did not have available bathing water to stay fresh and clean". Not to mention all the washing of the feet they did.

outhouse · 06-14-2013, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From here

Quote:

As for the availability of the Mikvah:

..

Private houses had a mikvah built in. Probably only the rich and middle class could afford those. But there were also communal mikvahs, and the temple mikvahs. Can't really know how many mikvahs there were, but looking at how many have been found, I'd guess there were enough around to seriously dent the idea that "In the time of Jesus people generally did not have available bathing water to stay fresh and clean". Not to mention all the washing of the feet they did.

Have you heard of one in first century Nazareth?

I wonder how many have been found in Capernaum that date to the first century.

spin · 06-14-2013, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I think a good point is those who did not live in a place where one could have or use a mikvah.

Dunking in the river seems like a good replacement for the poor, even if it goes against the law of those who were rich enough to have or afford a mikvah.

Baptism though, a single event, has nothing to do with ritual bathing.

outhouse · 06-15-2013, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I think a good point is those who did not live in a place where one could have or use a mikvah.

Dunking in the river seems like a good replacement for the poor, even if it goes against the law of those who were rich enough to have or afford a mikvah.

Baptism though, a single event, has nothing to do with ritual bathing.

Im just investigating the two, and trying to understand what the poor did without this bathing ritual.

You have to admit, dunking some one under water so that no skin is left untouched is similar to a ritual mikvah dunking. Maybe they were replacing the ritual of the rich with a one time event, saving mikvahs for temple entry.

I dont know if there is a tie or not, Im sure your right. Just wondering if there is any overlap of the two.

JoeWallack · 07-29-2013, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Isn't the use of JtB by Mark kinda like a two-for-one?

An historical anchor and an Elijah figure in one easy to use package?

What's interesting is that John gets the Elijah identification, the expected prophet from Malachi 4:5. That leaves Jesus getting the mantle from John and his baptism, putting Jesus into the role of Elisha (Eli-sha ~ Ye-shua).

Once John already has the "Elijah" connection as a given, hitching Jesus in writes itself with the Elisha ~ Jesus connection. And if Elisha can feed a hundred (2K4:42ff), then Jesus can naturally feed thousands. Healings. The raising of the dead (Elisha's bones! 2K13:21).

JW:
The Table below demonstrates that the entire John/Jesus story is well paralleled by the Elijah/Elisha story. Thus more solid Literary Criticism evidence that the baptism of Jesus by John is fiction. Comically, HJ sez that the 2nd best HJ fact is this baptism.

[T2]
Mark|
Kings|
Commentary||
Mark 1

Quote:

2 Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who
shall prepare thy way.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye
ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight;

|
-|
Elijah from The Jewish Bible explicitly identified as the source for John||
Mark 1.4-5

Quote:

4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins

|
1 Kings 19

Quote:

14 And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah, the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
15 And Jehovah said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, thou shalt anoint Hazael to be king over Syria;
16 and Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth from the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay; and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18 Yet will I leave [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

|
John/Elijah both on a Mission to restore Israel||
Mark 1.6

Quote:

And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.

|
2 Kings 1.8

Quote:

And they answered him, He was a hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite

|
Elijah/John described by hair and leather girdle||
Mark 1.7

Quote:

And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

|
2 Kings 2.9

Quote:

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

|
Successor more powerful than predecessor||
Mark 1.8

Quote:

I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.

|
2 Kings 2.8-9

Quote:

8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

|
Elijah/John associated with water. Elisha/Jesus associated with Spirit||
Mark 1.9

Quote:

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

|
2 Kings 2.11-12

Quote:

And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood over against them afar off: and they two stood by the Jordan.

|
Successor anointed by predecessor in Jordan||
Mark 1.10

Quote:

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him.

|
2 Kings 2.11-12

Quote:

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and the horsemen thereof! And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

|
Elisha/Jesus see Heaven open as the Spirit passes.
||
Mark 1.11

Quote:

And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased

|
2 Kings 2.12

Quote:

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and the horsemen thereof! And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

|
The Heavenly Father/son relationship
||
[/T2]

Adam Winn illustrates in Mark and the Elijah-Elisha Narrative that there are solid parallels to the Elijah-Elisha narrative throughout "Mark". Super-Skeptic Neil Godfree has recently featured Brodie, properly credentialed, Christian Bible scholar, who argues that the Elijah-Elisha narrative is the base for "Mark", "Mark" is the base for subsequent Gospels = MJ.

At this point in time HJ has the following problems:

1) Paul = best potential witness to HJ due to location. Doherty has demonstrated that Paul is primarily witness to Impossible Jesus and not much witness to a possibly historical Jesus.

2) "Mark" = the only other potentially good witness to Jesus due to scope. Brodie has demonstrated that the Elijah-Elisha narrative is likely a significant source.

3) Weakness of Source Criticism evidence. What witness for HJ has quality criteria of credibility and location? I have faith that Dr. Carrier will address this in his forthcoming book.

As always, note that the above is only negative evidence for HJ, not positive evidence for MJ. For those who need points sharply explained, positive evidence for MJ would be a witness (ancient) who claims MJ. And the same witness standards would apply, credibility and location. Without that you should be AJ, not MJ.

Joseph

Steve Weiss · 07-30-2013, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Okay, so the world did not end and you still have to go to work and make your minimum monthly credit card payments. Well here's something to cheer you up. A poll asking you what your position is regarding the historicity of Jesus' supposed baptism by John. All votes are treated alike whether you are Dr. Richard Carrier (PhD in Ancient History and author of Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ's Birth by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2006)) or 7 year college student ApoState Abe (author of "who, who". Excuse me, a flock of owls just flew into the room. Out you damn owls. Author of Chat Roullete Kid)

Lest you think your vote will not make a difference the Republicans have now become so desperate for a real candidate that John the Baptist is currently running 3rd in the polls ahead of John McCain but behind Herman Cain (Cain? Isn't that proof that they are evil?). If John (the Baptist) wins they plan on than bringing back Jesus, having him baptized by John, and than putting together a Merger of Church and State (for a 10 percent Commission).

In addition to your precious vote, please also indicate the main reason for your vote.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

The OT and NT are fictions start to finish. Was Clark Kent Superman and a refugee from the dying planet of Krypton? Uh, no. That is a comic book story and no more believable than the sacred books of ancient history.

Cheerful Charlie · 07-31-2013, 12:07 PM

John was well known, see Josephus. So the writer of Mark would have been tempted to make the character of his gospel baptized to hang the miraculous happenings there upon. Its possible that it might have occurred, and possible its all a tall tale. But the importance of the tale was not the baptism, but the holy spirit descending as a dove and the voice from heaven, and John's alleged testimony on behalf of Jesus. None of which I find believable. All other gospels more or less copied Mark.

Cheerful Charrlie

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06-14-2013, 08:07 PM	#293
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	I think a good point is those who did not live in a place where one could have or use a mikvah. Dunking in the river seems like a good replacement for the poor, even if it goes against the law of those who were rich enough to have or afford a mikvah. I think it is hilarious to watch people spinning their wheels trying so hard to to try and dig all of the NT stories out of the OT just because they used the OT as a foundation for belief of their mythology. Parallels, oh sure plenty, but not everything.

07-31-2013, 12:07 PM	#300
Cheerful Charlie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 3,884	John was well known, see Josephus. So the writer of Mark would have been tempted to make the character of his gospel baptized to hang the miraculous happenings there upon. Its possible that it might have occurred, and possible its all a tall tale. But the importance of the tale was not the baptism, but the holy spirit descending as a dove and the voice from heaven, and John's alleged testimony on behalf of Jesus. None of which I find believable. All other gospels more or less copied Mark. Cheerful Charrlie

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