aa5874

Irenaeus most likely did not or could not have "sat at the feet of Polycarp" when Irenaeus publicly argued for years that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years of age after being about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius or about c 49 CE.

We can deduce that the Epistle to the Philippians of Polycarp was written AFTER Marcion or is an anti-Marcionite Epistle.

Polycarp's Epistle to Philippians

stephan huller

Marcion wasn't reacting. He was the first. The Catholic Church was reacting to Marcion and the greater tradition of Mark that he embodied. Marcion = 'lesser Mark' so Hilgenfeld

dockeen

He mentions you now and again in his podcast, and always in a favorable
light, even when he doesn't seem to agree with you. That is cool!

Roger Pearse

This is the old Harnack idea, isn't it. But is there any actual evidence of this? It is unfortunate that the data attached to Harnack's book was not translated in the English version.

We also need to bear in mind that promoting and emphasising the priority of the only heresy which rejected Judaism (so Harnack thought) in a period of rising anti-semitism and in a country with a state church may have some evil motives behind it. This was the culture that produced arguments that Jesus was racially an Aryan, not a Jew (and, before we laugh, made some kind of case for it). So we do need solid data; and I rather doubt it exists.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Erm ... Peregrinus Proteus committed suicide. He was a stoic, but he wasn't a martyr. To be martyred there needs to be compulsion.

stephan huller

I think the parallels between the two texts go back to one and the same historical account which agrees with neither account perfectly. If you'd like me to provide a list of parallels I can (there is also an article I published at Hermann Detering's site which I wrote while anxiously waiting for the birth of my son). But basically the similarities come down

1. Herod = Herodes Atticus in either narrative
2. the Christian martyr dies by fire
3. the fact that most of Irenaeus's references to Polycarp are anonymous ('presbyter') especially in material where he combats Florinus (Book 4)
4. the bird that comes out of the flames of the martyr's death
5. the association of both men with Ignatius's letters (see Lightfoot)
6. the reference to 'games' in either death
7. they operate in Asia Minor
8. they die in the same age (I think the death of Polycarp and Peregrinus are attributed with in a few years of one another)

There's more but I wrote this up on the fly

stephan huller

No its not. He should find better caliber friends

aa5874

Jesus was a Jew?? Please don't make me laugh. Even when Christians and historicists take the New Testament literally there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was a Jew.

The conception of Jesus is documented in the New Testament

There is solid data for the birth of Jesus in the Bible.

If the New Testament is not solid data for the conception of Jesus then there is no other data.

Matthew 1:18 CEB There is no genealogy for Mary in the New Testament and it is virtually impossible that the Ghost which impregnated Mary was a Jew.

It is clear that the New Testament is a compilation of Mythology NOT Literal history as Christians and historicists presume.

The earliest version of the New Testament that has been found do show that it is indeed mythology.

stephan huller

But Roger you have to come to terms with the diversity within Judaism. And you of all people should be aware of the number of times Tertullian accuses Marcion of being Jewish or taking arguments from the Jews.

MrMacSon

I wonder how scholars such as Trobisch & Price can be sure of what vague characters like Polycarp did [or - add - allegedly wrote], given the vague information we have about them and him; and given likely later rewriting, translation-mistakes, and even concerted editing.