Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 07-16-2013, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If you are asking me what the traditional Jewish view is going back to the Talmud, then I can tell you that the book they found was the original book of the entire Torah that had Bern written by Moses himself. Anything else on this? They had their own other copies, but not Moses' original one which had disappeared, probabl y at the time of the kings Achaz or Menashe.

Funny that with the unbroken oral tradition and all going back to Moses, that nobody realized the Torah was missing for 500 years.

I don't suppose you could provide a reference where this is discussed?

I guess only Outhouse gets hassled about them, maybe justifiably since I had to listen to that idiotic song yesterday.

THE ACCURACY OF OUR WRITTEN TORAH
Rabbi Dovid Lichtman

Rabbi Lichtman manges to go through the whole thing without mentioning the little hiccup in Josiah.

Quote:

Originally, it was easy to attend to the Mesorah of the Torah text. A Torah scroll written in Moshe's own hand was kept in or near the Holy Ark in the Holy of Holies (Bava Batra 14a). This text, which apparently was accessible to the Kohanim (Rashi Bava Batra 14b s.v. Sefer; see also Tosefot, Bava Batra 14a s.v. Shelo), undoubtedly served as the proof text for all other texts. The scroll which each Jewish king was required to write and bear at all times was likewise copied from this scroll (Rambam, Hil. Sefer Torah 7:2, based on Yerushalmi Sanhedrin 2:6). The kingly scrolls, in turn, served as proof texts after their owner's death.

I wasn't calling you out Duvi, just making a little joke as usual.

The wording in Kings is that only a single scroll was discovered and that it was read to the population because nobody had heard it before - certainly Josiah should have heard it before since he had to write one (based on the original).

My impression is that once you get out of the Pentateuch, that Rabbis are on thin ice, and would have difficulty explaining this. [Not exactly on solid ground for the Pentateuch either]

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 09:44 AM

It was not missing for 500 years. And even if it had been, they had their supply of copies. It was simply the original copy written by Moses that had disappeared. And it is more than likely it disappeared during the maniacal reigns of Menashe or Achaz. That's all I was saying. They still had their own accurate copies of the Torah and later writings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If you are asking me what the traditional Jewish view is going back to the Talmud, then I can tell you that the book they found was the original book of the entire Torah that had Bern written by Moses himself. Anything else on this? They had their own other copies, but not Moses' original one which had disappeared, probabl y at the time of the kings Achaz or Menashe.

Funny that with the unbroken oral tradition and all going back to Moses, that nobody realized the Torah was missing for 500 years.

I don't suppose you could provide a reference where this is discussed?

I guess only Outhouse gets hassled about them, maybe justifiably since I had to listen to that idiotic song yesterday.

THE ACCURACY OF OUR WRITTEN TORAH
Rabbi Dovid Lichtman

Rabbi Lichtman manges to go through the whole thing without mentioning the little hiccup in Josiah.

Quote:

Originally, it was easy to attend to the Mesorah of the Torah text. A Torah scroll written in Moshe's own hand was kept in or near the Holy Ark in the Holy of Holies (Bava Batra 14a). This text, which apparently was accessible to the Kohanim (Rashi Bava Batra 14b s.v. Sefer; see also Tosefot, Bava Batra 14a s.v. Shelo), undoubtedly served as the proof text for all other texts. The scroll which each Jewish king was required to write and bear at all times was likewise copied from this scroll (Rambam, Hil. Sefer Torah 7:2, based on Yerushalmi Sanhedrin 2:6). The kingly scrolls, in turn, served as proof texts after their owner's death.

I wasn't calling you out Duvi, just making a little joke as usual.

The wording in Kings is that only a single scroll was discovered and that it was read to the population because nobody had heard it before - certainly Josiah should have heard it before since he had to write one (based on the original).

My impression is that once you get out of the Pentateuch, that Rabbis are on thin ice, and would have difficulty explaining this. [Not exactly on solid ground for the Pentateuch either]

outhouse · 07-16-2013, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Is there a rule against unaccredited information being posted here as a source? No matter how accurate the information is?

Chris Redford

Have to admit that I had no intention of watching the video.

I tried looking up the comment that mentioned 9:52 in 2 Kings and Chronicles before I realized that it was a time.

Then I listened to the video with my headphones while doing something else and figured the weirdos chanting in the background were like an introduction. After several minutes of this I actually looked at the screen and saw it was like a powerpoint thing.

Mainly I was interested in Josiah. Let me leave some random notes because I've sort of lost track of what we were talking about.

Josiah was apparently historical - supposedly killed at Megiddo in 609 BCE. Josiah let the temporary power vacuum in the area go to his head..

There are a couple of things worth noting, 609 BCE wasn't long before the Babylonian exile, in fact Megiddo was a direct cause That means the stuff in 2 Kings and Chronicles couldn't have been been written before the exile.

Every one but Duvi has an opinion on the "Book of the Law" that was found in the temple.

The link below is a reference in the wiki

The Book of Josiah's Reform

Somehow they talk themselves into Moses being the author

Quote:

In conclusion it seems that the “book of the law” which Hilkiah found in the temple was not a recently written Deuteronomy for the purpose of (and as a basis of) Josiah’s reform, but an early Deuteronomy, if not all of the law, written in the second millennium by Moses. Although there is more work to be done concerning the thematic arguments of 2 Kings 23 and the real significance of the treaty forms, it seems as though the burden of proof lies with the higher critic at this point.

Thanks for the reply.

"Side note" The video was good enough, he was awarded $10,000 for his work in making this clip.

I know he credits Karen Armstrong. I personally dont know if he deviated from her work, or whether it was his only source.

best vid I have ever seen explaining the evolution of the Abrahamic deity, despite its possible errors.

semiopen · 07-16-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It was not missing for 500 years. And even if it had been, they had their supply of copies. It was simply the original copy written by Moses that had disappeared. And it is more than likely it disappeared during the maniacal reigns of Menashe or Achaz. That's all I was saying. They still had their own accurate copies of the Torah and later writings.

I came up with the 500 by myself because the temple was around for 480 years, plus the number of years Israel was between Exodus and Kings which was I think also 480 (wild guess). So it seems it may have been lost for 900 some years, so thank goodness this isn't a math forum.

Just to quote some of the relevant passages

Quote:

2 Kings 22:10-13
The scribe Shaphan also told the king, "The high priest Hilkiah has given me a scroll"; and Shaphan read it to the king.
When the king heard the words of the scroll of the Teaching, he rent his clothes.
And the king gave orders to the priest Hilkiah, and to Ahikam son of Shaphan, Achbor son of Michaiah, the scribe Shaphan, and Asaiah the king's minister:
"Go, inquire of the LORD on my behalf, and on behalf of the people, and on behalf of all Judah, concerning the words of this scroll that has been found. For great indeed must be the wrath of the LORD that has been kindled against us, because our fathers did not obey the words of this scroll to do all that has been prescribed for us."

This seems to describe something that King Josiah had never read before.

So these guys go and consult the local prophetess. Her take on the matter is that God isn't angry about Josiah totally forgetting what he read in Shul every week (or three times a week I suppose), or what he copied letter for letter.

Quote:

2 Kings 22:14 So the priest Hilkiah, and Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to the prophetess Huldah -- the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah son of Harhas, the keeper of the wardrobe -- who was living in Jerusalem in the Mishneh, and they spoke to her. 15 She responded: "Thus said the LORD, the God of Israel: Say to the man who sent you to me: 16 Thus said the LORD: I am going to bring disaster upon this place and its inhabitants, in accordance with all the words of the scroll which the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken Me and have made offerings to other gods and vexed Me with all their deeds, My wrath is kindled against this place and it shall not be quenched. 18 But say this to the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD: Thus said the LORD, the God of Israel: As for the words which you have heard -- 19 because your heart was softened and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I decreed against this place and its inhabitants -- that it will become a desolation and a curse -- and because you rent your clothes and wept before Me, I for My part have listened -- declares the LORD. 20 Assuredly, I will gather you to your fathers and you will be laid in your tomb in peace. Your eyes shall not see all the disaster which I will bring upon this place." So they brought back the reply to the king. (2Ki 22:14-20 TNK)

I just don't see how one can argue that they had other copies. The passage doesn't even suggest that the thing was written by Moses, it was just a scroll whose contents, people were totally unfamiliar with.

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 12:16 PM

OF COURSE they never read it before, because they had not seen the original Torah scroll of Moses before.

Now let's be logical. Why on Earth would an advocate of the Torah who writes a book that we consider to be of the sacred writings entertain the the idea that the very Torah that is the basis of the religion did not exist prior to that time, and why on Earth would this never be stated in a single place in all the many thousands of pages of writing about Judaism throughout 2000 years of dispersion from Morocco to Russia?

semiopen · 07-16-2013, 12:41 PM

Assuming they had copies and they'd heard all these things before...

Quote:

The scribe Shaphan also told the king, "The high priest Hilkiah has given me a scroll"; and Shaphan read it to the king.

Why would the guy read the thing to Josiah instead of saying something like, "look this thing is in Moshe's own handwriting - gotta be worth the GDP of Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon combined."

I just don't see how that passage can be read as saying in any way that Josiah had heard that stuff before.

Toto · 07-16-2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...

"Side note" The video was good enough, he was awarded $10,000 for his work in making this clip.

He was awarded $10,000 by Project Reason for his deconversion story.

Quote:

I know he credits Karen Armstrong. I personally dont know if he deviated from her work, or whether it was his only source.

best vid I have ever seen explaining the evolution of the Abrahamic deity, despite its possible errors.

Why would you confine your search for knowledge to youtube videos?

Here is the youtube channel for Chris Redford:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3

There is a bibliography for this video:

Books and Concepts:

A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam:
Exodus Renaming by P verified in The Bible with Sources Revealed (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Wikipedia articles describing the evolution of Jewish monotheism from polytheism and on the following topics:

Enuma Elish
Library of Ashurbanipal
Canaanite Religion:
Taanach Cult Stand
Israel Enters Recorded History in Egypt at 1200 BCE
Jeremiah's Monolatrist Polytheism

And:
Did Jewish Slaves Build the Pyramids?:
http://skeptoid.com/ ...

Duvduv · 07-16-2013, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Wikipedia articles describing the evolution of Jewish monotheism from polytheism and on the following topics:

What you mean to say is "ALLEGED evolution".......let's be precise, since there is no way on earth you can empirically prove this statement without the word "alleged."

outhouse · 07-16-2013, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...

"Side note" The video was good enough, he was awarded $10,000 for his work in making this clip.

He was awarded $10,000 by Project Reason for his deconversion story.

Quote:

I know he credits Karen Armstrong. I personally dont know if he deviated from her work, or whether it was his only source.

best vid I have ever seen explaining the evolution of the Abrahamic deity, despite its possible errors.

Why would you confine your search for knowledge to youtube videos?

Here is the youtube channel for Chris Redford:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3

There is a bibliography for this video:

Books and Concepts:

A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam:
Exodus Renaming by P verified in The Bible with Sources Revealed (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Wikipedia articles describing the evolution of Jewish monotheism from polytheism and on the following topics:

Enuma Elish
Library of Ashurbanipal
Canaanite Religion:
Taanach Cult Stand
Israel Enters Recorded History in Egypt at 1200 BCE
Jeremiah's Monolatrist Polytheism

And:
Did Jewish Slaves Build the Pyramids?:
http://skeptoid.com/ ...

That is wonderful you can research a person.

But can you find error is his work?

Davka · 07-16-2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I think that Karen Armstrong qualifies as a scholar.

Keep thinking.

Her work may be brilliant, but sadly, excellent work does not qualify one as a scholar.

Do you imagine that one must be a member of academia in order to be a scholar?

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07-16-2013, 12:16 PM	#235
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	OF COURSE they never read it before, because they had not seen the original Torah scroll of Moses before. Now let's be logical. Why on Earth would an advocate of the Torah who writes a book that we consider to be of the sacred writings entertain the the idea that the very Torah that is the basis of the religion did not exist prior to that time, and why on Earth would this never be stated in a single place in all the many thousands of pages of writing about Judaism throughout 2000 years of dispersion from Morocco to Russia?

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