Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 09-28-2013, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

From the translation .....

Quote:

So, with the guiding assistance of the all-powerful and essentially unified trinity of the one divinity ....

Seems to be post-Nicaean.

Well-spotted.

τῆς παντοκρατορικῆς καὶ ὁμοουσίου τριάδος

The reference to the homoousion does not necessarily mean post-Nicaea, but that is the most likely explanation, of course.

I agree

See also:

Quote:

For he who accomplished these things is the Son of God and God the Christ, of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who encompasses everything

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 09-28-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

From the translation .....

Quote:

So, with the guiding assistance of the all-powerful and essentially unified trinity of the one divinity ....

Seems to be post-Nicaean.

Well-spotted.

τῆς παντοκρατορικῆς καὶ ὁμοουσίου τριάδος

The reference to the homoousion does not necessarily mean post-Nicaea, but that is the most likely explanation, of course.

I agree

See also:

Quote:

For he who accomplished these things is the Son of God and God the Christ, of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who encompasses everything

Hmm. Consubstantial with the Holy Spirit ... I'm afraid I'm not well up in later councils, but that isn't part of the Nicene definition, unless I mistake. Is it part of a later creed, I wonder? Whatever it was that the pneumatomachoi were supposed to object to?

Roger Pearse · 09-28-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

You know what I am thinking? Since it appears that Mark House was put off by Rene Salm's atheist leanings maybe it would be best if you approached him or I introduced you as someone who was also interested in this stuff. Apparently he took one look at Salm's stuff about the non-existence of Nazareth and dropped the project. Maybe I could direct him to your website and give him another perspective about the need for this to be translated?

Taken offline.

andrewcriddle · 09-29-2013, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I agree

See also:

Quote:

For he who accomplished these things is the Son of God and God the Christ, of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who encompasses everything

Hmm. Consubstantial with the Holy Spirit ... I'm afraid I'm not well up in later councils, but that isn't part of the Nicene definition, unless I mistake. Is it part of a later creed, I wonder? Whatever it was that the pneumatomachoi were supposed to object to?

It becomes explicitly stated in the later councils e.g. 2nd Constantinople 553

Quote:

If anyone shall not confess that the nature or essence of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is one, as also the force and the power; [if anyone does not confess] a consubstantial Trinity, one Godhead to be worshipped in three subsistences or Persons: let him be anathema. For there is but one God even the Father of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit in whom are all things.

but it is present in substance in Athanasius (whom the author of the Acts of Mark seems to be following.)

Athanasius Letters to Serapion

Quote:

For the holy and blessed Triad is
indivisible and one in itself. When mention is made of the
Father, there is included also his Word, and the Spirit
who is in the Son. If the Son is named, the Father is in the
Son, and the Spirit is not outside the Word. For there is
from the Father one grace which is fulfilled through the Son
in the Holy Spirit; and there is one divine nature, and one
God 'who is over all and through all and in all'.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 09-29-2013, 03:25 PM

I got a "threat detection" warning from Norton 360 as it seemed to want to download a "utility" program rather/along with the PDF. One of the other moderators thinks that Scribd is legit, but it has always bothered me that anytime you click a link to a Scribd document from a Google search result set, it takers a really long time before you can do anything with your computer due to all the scripts that the site is trying to run as it "downloads" the document. I got that same slowdown delay with McAfee Anti-Virus as well. The site tries way way too hard to run scripts, and that only means trouble to me.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Here is the scanned Greek transcription.

Moderator's Note: I'm blocking off the url because it seems to require the download of an executable file to read the document. Just as I realized this was an attempt to download code to my computer, and was reaching for the "back" key, a dialogue box was coming up warning me that my Antivirus software (Norton 360) had detected a threat.

DO NOT CLICK THE LINK UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE

I am recommending to the other Mods that the link be erased. FWIW, this is actually one of those programs that fish for business or personal info using legitimate programs. In this case the "legitimate front" program would be a "tool" to help Scribd members view files.

FWIW I had no difficulty obtaining the PDF, and I wasn't asked to download an executable (I am pretty gunshy about that, after such a one trashed my old laptop).

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 09-29-2013, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I agree

See also:

Quote:

For he who accomplished these things is the Son of God and God the Christ, of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who encompasses everything

Hmm. Consubstantial with the Holy Spirit ... I'm afraid I'm not well up in later councils, but that isn't part of the Nicene definition, unless I mistake. Is it part of a later creed, I wonder? Whatever it was that the pneumatomachoi were supposed to object to?

It becomes explicitly stated in the later councils e.g. 2nd Constantinople 553

Quote:

If anyone shall not confess that the nature or essence of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is one, as also the force and the power; [if anyone does not confess] a consubstantial Trinity, one Godhead to be worshipped in three subsistences or Persons: let him be anathema. For there is but one God even the Father of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit in whom are all things.

but it is present in substance in Athanasius (whom the author of the Acts of Mark seems to be following.)

Athanasius Letters to Serapion

Quote:

For the holy and blessed Triad is
indivisible and one in itself. When mention is made of the
Father, there is included also his Word, and the Spirit
who is in the Son. If the Son is named, the Father is in the
Son, and the Spirit is not outside the Word. For there is
from the Father one grace which is fulfilled through the Son
in the Holy Spirit; and there is one divine nature, and one
God 'who is over all and through all and in all'.

Thank you. (I trust that "present in substance" was not a horrible pun...)

Roger Pearse · 09-29-2013, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

I got a "threat detection" warning from Norton 360 as it seemed to want to download a "utility" program rather/along with the PDF. One of the other moderators thinks that Scribd is legit, but it has always bothered me that anytime you click a link to a Scribd document from a Google search result set, it takers a really long time before you can do anything with your computer due to all the scripts that the site is trying to run as it "downloads" the document. I got that same slowdown delay with McAfee Anti-Virus as well. The site tries way way too hard to run scripts, and that only means trouble to me.

DCH

Your feelings are mine. I've never had trouble with ScribD, but I had a laptop trashed by a site that did just what you are describing; offered a book and sent an exe. You can get a long way through before realising you have been scammed.

andrewcriddle · 09-30-2013, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

It becomes explicitly stated in the later councils e.g. 2nd Constantinople 553 but it is present in substance in Athanasius (whom the author of the Acts of Mark seems to be following.)

Athanasius Letters to Serapion

Thank you. (I trust that "present in substance" was not a horrible pun...)

No pun intended.

Andrew Criddle

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