outhouse

Thank you for your time.


I posted enough of Finklestein and Silberman, with exact quotes.

Ah true, but it also backs much of what ive stated.

You also will note the most current work also mirrors this view.


I really dont think there is a debate here, and its not my job to fully educate those who are not up tp speed yet in this exact area.


Ive always hated the controversy surrounding Smith, and the age of his work has left it obsolete in places. In other areas I would agree his work was great and there is much I could learn.

His general view in not alltogether that different in places, from what ive posted.

Finklestein, Silberman, Dever and Faust are the authorities in this area of Etnogenesis.

J-D

Well, make up your mind. It can't be both.

J-D

Thank you for posting a link to that video.

According to the account given there, the exiles in Babylonia switched to believing that there is only one God when they accepted the preaching of Deutero-Isaiah.

I don't know for sure whether that is correct, but if it is then it's an example that fits the pattern I mentioned earlier as having seen in cases where there is extensive documentary evidence: the origin of a religion involves an individual preaching a religious message and other people accepting it.

steve_bnk

I was going to post this on another thread on the question of the skin color of an HJ. Seems more appropriate here.

It is old news, but would seem to open the question as to who gets to claim Jewish authenticity.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

'...Tudor Parfitt, the protagonist of the NOVA documentary "Lost Tribes of Israel," made a journey through southern Africa to study the unusual traditions of a black African tribe called the Lemba. This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names. ..

In an interview with NOVA, team member Dr. David Goldstein commented on the team's findings: "The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

What this study shows is that the Lemba, and more specifically some members of the Buba sub-clan, seem to have an ancestral connection to Judaic populations. Like an oral history, but written in the letters of their DNA, the Lemba Y chromosome hands from father to son a living record of the past....'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_p..._or_Arab_links


'...A subsequent study in 2000 found that a substantial number of Lemba men carry a particular haplotype of the Y-chromosome known as the Cohen modal haplotype (CMH), as well as, a haplogroup of Y-DNA Haplogroup J found amongst some Jews, but also in other populations across the Middle East and Arabia.[33][34] The genetic studies have suggested that there is no Semitic female contribution to the Lemba gene pool.[35] This indicates that Jewish men migrated to Africa in ancient times and took wives from among the local people after settling in new communities...

Among Jews the CMH marker is most prevalent among Jewish Kohanim, or hereditary priests. As recounted in Lemba oral tradition, the ancestor of the Buba clan "had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel" and eventually into Southern Africa.[36] The genetic study found that 50% of the males in the Buba clan had the Cohanim marker, a proportion higher than in the general Jewish population.[37] While not defining the Lemba as Jews, the genetic results confirm the oral accounts of ancestral males originating from outside Africa, and specifically from southern Arabia.[38]...'

J-D

Not remotely, since Jewish authenticity is not defined by genetic markers.

outhouse

Maybe that is what King Josiah thought, but it doesn't reflect the people as a whole.

DC pointed out Smith and if you follow his work you see it took hundreds of years for the people to fully get behind monotheism.

Not only that, these were multi cultural people who at times were both polytheistic, monotheistic and henotheistic as a whole.

J-D

Obviously it's not what King Josiah thought, since King Josiah predates the Babylonian exiles and so knew and thought nothing about them.I don't see what difference it makes how long the process took. The account given in the video that you linked to describes Deutero-Isaiah preaching monotheism as a new idea. It doesn't say anything about how long it took for that idea to win general acceptance (or any particular degree of acceptance), but how is that an issue in dispute? The relevant point is that the account you cited describes the origin of the Judaic-monotheistic concept with an individual preaching it and others (over some unspecified short or long period of time) accepting it.Unless you insist on having it both ways, there are two possibilities. Either you can take the position that Judaism existed in a non-monotheistic form before it became monotheistic, or you can take the position that it only counts as Judaism once it became monotheistic, but that this monotheistic Jewish religion emerged from an earlier non-monotheistic pre-Judaism. If you take the latter position, then the question becomes how this monotheistic religion emerged from the earlier non-monotheistic background, and the answer given by the video you linked to is that monotheistic Judaism emerged from the earlier non-monotheistic background when people (eventually, however long it took) accepted the monotheism preached by Deutero-Isaiah. If you take the other position, that the religion was already Judaism even before it became monotheistic, I'm still looking for your explanation of how it emerged: not 'what background did the religion emerge from?' but 'how did it emerge from that background?'.

outhouse

If you listen, they talk about the period of second Isaiah and also claim King Josiah instituted monotheism before the return. Your bringing up points further down the line in the evolution of Monotheism.


Deutero-Isaiah preaching monotheism applies to what ive been stating 100%. For some Monotheism was new even though Kind Josiah had the most impact biblically and politically towards monotheism. If you would like to talk about Ezras redactions towards monotheism you can, he had quite the impact as well.

J-D

No, if you listen, the linked video refers to Josiah instituting monolatry and clearly distinguishes this from monotheism.No, I'm not bringing up additional points, I'm discussing the content of the video you linked to.If Jewish monotheism originated with Deutero-Isaiah, it fits the pattern of an original preacher being involved in a new religious development.Unlike you, I am not interested in seeing how many possibilities there are for going off on tangents as a way of avoiding being pinned down to any clearly stated position whatever.

outhouse

lets see if we are watching the same video.

At 1:05 in the vid it states monotheism to god starts 600 BC.

Does it not?