Duvduv

I have read the book and some of the sources he uses, which is why I started this thread.......

Tenorikuma

I'm interested in the topic, but need to do a lot more reading before I am caught up on the matter. It does seem, however, that the official version of Islam's origins does not hold water.

Clivedurdle

It seems New English Review that has many articles by Ibn Warraq is still down following a Denial of Service attack

I recommend Tom Holland Shadow of the Sword.

This link has a good summary of issues

http://iheu.org/content/conference-e...slam-and-koran

Minimalist

Well then, while I found his discussion of the various artifacts interesting the Syriac derivation and the use of diacritical marks was even more fascinating.

Duvduv

One of the most important issues I guess is the status of Mecca. If Mecca was not mentioned as a major trading center on the trading routes in the 6th or 7th century, then how did it eventually get that status? Kind of reminds me of the controversy surrounding the town of Nazareth in the gospels.

mountainman

This is a valid comparison between Mecca and Nazareth IMO. I can remember reading that Mecca was not mentioned until a century or two after the supposed death of Muhammad. I made some notes following an audio discussion about the questionable history of Islam but cannot locate them. I do recall posting this data to the forum some years ago but the archives do not appear to have been recovered.

I regret being unable to answer your list of questions atm, but they are good questions and they require good answers. I certainly see the parallel between the creation of the centralised monotheistic state religion of the Moslems and that of the Christians. The Moslems followed Constantine's lead, and there is good reason to believe that Constantine followed the 3rd century lead of the Persian King of Kings Ardashir.

I can recall (again without being able to reference notes) that the primary reason the centralised monotheistic Islamic state was formed was to consolidate the position of the rulers over a large geographically extended empire. Religion for the rulers was a very useful tool, and the greater the power of the rulers, the greater the use was the (state) religion.

Finally one aspect that strikes me as important is that the so-called peaceful and generous Muhammad, when he obtained absolute and supreme military command of the empire made a specific point of publically executing a number of satirists. Such absolute rulers enforced orthodoxy with the sword and the greatest threat to such orthodoxy appears to have been influential satirists.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Duvduv

MM, that point about satire makes me wonder whether in fact many of the traditions of the Prophet called hadiths that sound very peculiar were in fact simply satire that came to be taken seriously, i.e. regarding Mohammed's sex life for example.

mountainman

I think they very well might be satire on Muhammad's sex life and there are certainly parallels in the so-called "gnostic material" about the sex life of Jesus and the sex life of the apostles. The most explicit of these is to be found in the "Greater Questions of Mary" mentioned by the 4th century heresiologist Epiphanius who recalls the story (being passed around by the heretics) of Jesus and Mary upon a mountain top in which Jesus pulls a woman from out of his ribs (recalling the creation of Eve from Adam) and madly fucks her in the presence of Mary.



εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Duvduv

Thus the question could be asked whether such hadiths were ever intended as real expressions of the life of the prophet who they believed existed, OR were simple humor of his enemies adapted by the Muslims. It's hard to believe these were taken seriously in a spiritual context:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an...lars:Sexuality

mountainman

The problem as I see it is that both Biblical and Islamic scholars and academics are not equipped to be able to perceive such simple basic humour since they have been strongly conditioned to read their respective holy writs as utterly humourless tomes - the very word of the living monotheistic god. Thou shalt not laugh at the holy writ or within the confines of the church or mosque.




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia