aa5874

What about the quote you gave about James?? It is not even found in Josephus. I am not amused at your attempt to divert attention from your refusal to present any corroborative evidence from antiquity.

By the way, I have already shown what Aristides wrote about the START of the Jesus cult of Christians.

You must have forgotten. People were called Christians when they believed a Myth fable that the Jews Pierced the Son of God called Jesus who came down from heaven.

Listen to the GENTILE called Aristides.

[u] Aristides' Apology Jews did not start the blasphemous claims of the Jesus cult. It was the Gentiles.

In fact, up to the 4th century, the Jews claimed that the Jesus cult misused their books and BROKE the Laws of the Jews.

Eusebius' Preparation of the Gospel The blasphemous Jesus story was derived from the GENTILES.

Examine the writings of the Gentile Justin in his "Dialogue with Trypho".

Dialogue with Trypho CVII The Jews did NOT start the Godless, Lawless and Holy doctrines of the Jesus cult.

It was the Gentiles who started the cult sometime in the 2nd century.

Eusebius' Preparation of the Gospel

TedM

Here's what started our recent exchange. You wrote:

I see now that this may have been an irrelevant comment by you. I can no longer tell. Are you saying that Christianity would not have started had the temple not fallen? If so, then my comments apply -- Gentiles have no need to explain the falling temple in terms involving a Jewish Messiah.

IF you are actually saying that Gentiles made up a story about Jesus without regard for the temple falling, then that's a different argument. That's simply an opinion with no evidence for it and plenty of evidence against it.


I listened. It doesn't follow that those who believed were buying into something made up by Gentiles. Where does Aristides say that? He doesn't. Read literally, Aristides is talking about something that originated among the Jews since that is where the Jesus he talked about came, that's where he was killed, and HIS OWN DISCIPLES were the source of the spread of Christianity. Your own source contradicts your argument.


Now, you DO rightly point out that Jews attributed the 'blasphemy' of Christianity to the Gentiles:


What you don't consider is that this doesn't preclude Jewish Christians who ALSO offended the Jews. Remember Paul's persecution of Jewish Christians? The persecution of Nero? Things you reject because they are inconvenient to your theory?

Again, your own source, Aristides, says that the twelve disciples of Jesus -- who obviously were JEWISH -- spread the word throughout the world. He doesn't say they spread some other message. YOUR OWN SOURCE ATTRIBUTES CHRISTIANITY ORIGINS TO THE JEWISH FOLLOWERS OF JESUS.

How much clearer can I make this for you aa?

You have nothing to stand on with your theories. You take documents and pervert them to 'create' out of thin air stuff that makes no sense and is directly contradicted by your own apologetic sources as well as the external evidence. I suggest your scrap your ridiculous theories and start over.

aa5874

I am not amused at your diversions.

You claimed that there was a record from Josephus of what Jews thought for the reason for the destruction of the Temple.

I have exposed that there is NO such record in ALL the works of Josephus.

Examine an excerpt from your own post #822 dated July 25th 2013.

Your argument is based on a non-existing or falsely attributed passage in all the writings attributed to Josephus.

Essentially your argument is baseless and unsubstantiated.

Again, I have utterly destroyed your argument and have shown that it is ACTUALLY documented that GENTILES did state that the destruction of the Temple and the City was because the Jews Killed Jesus, the Son of God.

1. Aristides the Gentile claimed the Jews Killed Jesus, the Son of God.

2. Justin the Gentile claimed the Jews Killed Jesus, the Son of God and it was the reason for the destruction of the Temple and the calamities of the Jews.

3. Tertullian the Gentile claimed the Jews Killed Jesus, the Son of God and it was predicted that the Temple and city would be destroyed AFTER Jesus was Killed.

4. Hippolytus the Gentile claimed Jews Killed Jesus the Son of God and it was for that reason the Temple was destroyed.

TedM

I'll break it down for you:

Here's what you wrote, which started our recent exchange:

First of all, the above appears to be a contradiction. How could the 'cult' START when there was ALREADY a pre-existing story about Jesus. Who started THAT story?

aa5874

I am completely focused on your fallacies.

I will always EXPOSE your fallacious claims.

Again, please identify where Josephus actually claimed the destruction of the Temple was because of the death of James.

You have OUTED yourself.

It has been exposed that the Jews claimed the teachings of the Jesus cult was Godless, Lawless and Unholy. See the writings of the GENTILES.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho CVII

TedM

aa, what more is there to discuss about the James passage? Origen wrote that it was in Josephus, so it clearly was in his copy, and that's the earliest reference we have to the James passage, I think. Whether Josephus wrote it or not we cannot say. IF he wrote it, why was it taken out? IF he didn't who put it in the copy Origen had, and why? At this point I don't think we have those answers.


Now, I'd like to understand what you wrote, which is the REAL focus of why I engaged you yesterday to begin with:

Let's start with your statement that began it all:

My response is this: The above appears to be a contradiction. How could the 'cult' START when there was ALREADY a pre-existing story about Jesus? After all, one can't believe a story if it doesn't exist. Please clarify. Also, who started THAT story, why did they start it, and when?

jdboy

It's all about Rome. Rome preserved the laws of their forefathers

"but the kindness of us Romans which hath excited you against us; who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation; and, in the third place, have preserved the [law]s of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves, or among others, as it should please you: and, what is our chief favor of all we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God (27) with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves, even when you were our enemies; and you made preparations for war against us with our own money; nay"
book 6 wars of the Jews

book 7

Vespasian resolved to build a temple to Peace, which was finished in so short a time, and in so glorious a manner, as was beyond all human expectation and opinion: for he having now by Providence a vast quantity of wealth, besides what he had formerly gained in his other exploits, he had this temple adorned with pictures and statues; for in this temple were collected and deposited all such rarities as men aforetime used to wander all over the habitable world to see, when they had a desire to see one of them after another; he also laid up therein those golden vessels and instruments that were taken out of the Jewish temple, as ensigns of his glory. But still he gave order that they should lay up their [Law], and the purple veils of the holy place, in the royal palace itself, and keep them there.

outhouse

Taking possession is one thing. Rewriting them is alltogether another conspiract theory.


The problem with Christianity is we know Rome had no control over these writings as a governement, they were opposed to Christians because they refused to worship the divinity of the Emperor.

Rome persecuted Christians as early as Nero.


Not one bit of Christian writings can be attributed to Rome as a governemnt.

jdboy

There is no problem in understanding who what where when and why, it's all Rome. People conspire everyday

Nero persecuted christians not followers of Jesus. Christians were the zealots they were the trouble makers.

outhouse

Do you personally think the Roman governement created the movement?




Is there a difference here?