J-D

Again you post more absurdities. This thread is about which answer is true.

Robert Tulip

For Superman, Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Creation_and_conception says Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, then students at Cleveland's Glenville High School, first conceived Superman as a bald telepathic villain bent on world domination.

We have no similar precision for Jesus Christ. But the situation for Jesus was that the story of the historical Jesus served the purpose of the fallacious ontological proof, that an existing deity is superior to an imaginary deity and therefore must exist, since God is perfect.

If people started to think Krypton was real, this information on wiki about Siegel and Shuster would be rapidly deleted by the fervent believers who would seek to suppress any trace that Krypton was fictional. Same thing as happened with Nazareth.

aa5874

Again, you post more absurdities. You don't really know what you are talking about.

What may appear to be the truth today may be found to be false tomorrow when NEW EVIDENCE surfaces.

That is precisely why people who were once convicted of crimes had been found NOT guilty when NEW EVIDENCE was found.

The "truth" today is based on the PRESENT available evidence.

One can ONLY use the present available evidence from antiquity to make arguments.

An argument, theory or assumption may be extremely weak and without any corroborative evidence like the assumption that the Jews started the Jesus cult of Christians.

Or an argument can be extremely well supported by the DATA in the present available evidence. The present available evidence from antiquity does not support the assumption that the Jews started the Jesus cult of Christians.

In other words, it is TRUE today that it is a Fallacious assumption that the Jews started the Jesus cult of Christians based on the PRESENT available evidence from antiquity.

The "TRUTH" today based on the present evidence cannot be overturned by fallacious assumptions--only with NEW evidence.

1. The Jews REJECTED Jesus as Christ and asked Pilate to have him Crucified in the PRESENT available recovered NT manuscripts.

2. The Jews Denied that Christ had come in the PRESENT available writings attributed to Apologetics.

3. The Jesus character BOASTED in secret that he wanted the Populace to remain in Sin and deliberately spoke in parables in the PRESENT recovered NT manuscripts.

4. Jesus demanded that his disciples tell NO MAN that he was Christ in the PRESENT available NT manuscripts.

5. On the day Jesus was dead, the disciples had either BETRAYED, ABANDONED or DENIED Jesus in the Present available recovered NT manuscripts.

6. Non-Apologetics wrote NOTHING of Jews of a Jesus cult of Christians or of Jesus the Christ of Nazareth in the 1st century in the Present available evidence attributed to ancient writers about the 1st century in the time of Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, Nero and Vespasian.

7. The Present available Dead Sea Scrolls do not mention Jews in a Jesus cult or Jesus of Nazareth.

8. Virtually all stories of Jesus of Nazareth dated to the 2nd-3rd century were recovered in Multiple locations in Egypt or bought in Egypt--Not in Jerusalem or Galilee.

9. Letters to place Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews in the 1st century before the fall of the Temple have been deduced to be forgeries by Scholars today.

10. Vespasian, the Roman Emperor was the Prophesied Messiah in Jewish Scriptures in the Present available writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio.

11. Vespasian, the Prophesied Messiah, carried out miracles by making the Blind see and the Lame walk in the Present available evidence from Tacitus and Suetonius.

12. Vepasian was the Savior of the Jews and the Roman Empire in the Present available evidence attributed to Josephus.

It is TRUE today that the assumption that the Jews started the Jesus cult of Christians is a Fallacy based on the present available evidence from antiquity.

J-D

Again you post more absurdities. It is absurd to fail to distinguish between using a document as evidence and assuming that everything in the document is true. It is absurd to fail to distinguish between reporting the fact that a statement is found in a document and reporting the contents of that statement as fact. You don't really know what you're talking about.

aa5874

Again, your post absurdities. You don't know what you are talking about. I have not claimed everything in any document is true.

You are not credible and is actively engaged in propaganda.

In fact, I have stated multiple times and for many years that the Jesus stories in the Canon are a compilation of Myth Fables like those Myth Fables of the Greeks and Romans.

Now, I have only shown that it is true that claims were made in the Canon, by Apologetics and Non-Apologetic sources.

Those sources made claims that support the argument that it is NOT true that the Jesus cult of Christians started with Jews.

1. In gMark, the Jews REJECTED Jesus and asked Pilate to KILL him.

2. In gMatthew, the Jews REJECTED Jesus and asked Pilate to KILL him.

3. In gLuke, the Jews REJECTED Jesus and asked Pilate to KILL him.

4. In gJohn, the Jesus claimed the Jews were of their father the Devil and wanted to KILL him.

5. Aristides claimed the Jews Killed Jesus.

6. Justin Martyr claimed the Jews Killed Jesus.

7. Tertullian claimed the Jews KILLED Jesus.

8. Hippolytus claimed the Jews KILLED Jesus.

9. Justin Martyr claimed that the Jews did not acknowledge the Advent of Jesus the Christ.

10. Tertullian claimed that the Jews did not acknowledge the advent of Jesus the Christ.

It is absolutely TRUE that Apologetics claimed the Jews KILLED Jesus.

It is absolutely TRUE that the present available evidence from Apologetics show it is a fallacious assumption that the Jesus cult of Christians started with Jews.

Even the very disciples of the supposed Jesus either BETRAYED, ABANDONED or DENIED Jesus up to the day he was KILLED.

John 5:18 KJV---Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 7:1 KJV---After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

John 8:37 KJV---I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:40 KJV---But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

J-D

Even if it's true that something like it was bound to happen one way or another (on which I won't venture an opinion), that doesn't tell us how it actually did happen, which is what I take to be the original question.

J-D

It is absurd to fail to distinguish between saying 'the only evidence we have to answer the question of how Christianity started is found in the ancient texts' and saying 'the only answer we have to the question of how Christianity started is the one given in the ancient texts'. You are not credible and don't know what you're talking about. You can't even tell the difference between my posts and other people's.

Clivedurdle

And Seneca wrote the Gospel of Mark, or possibly a Roman writing school did (in Alexandria, writing in Greek) partly as a special operation to win the Jewish wars through propaganda and thus free up legions to fight elsewhere.

I do not understand why the comments of Atwill for example are not taken more seriously.

Palestine was not the only theatre the Romans were in. Why would they not use literary weapons?

Clivedurdle

Maybe the first go did not work that well - Hadrian had to go trampling around there decades later! But the idea was resurrected again after two hundred years...

Christianity as an experimental political tool that took a few centuries to get right. The Romans copying the Persian monotheistic imperial system.

Robert Tulip

As a literary political weapon, the Gospels are primarily anti Rome, not anti Israel. The anti-Jewish content of the Gospels is secondary to the critique of pagan Rome, but was later emphasised by Christian anti-Semitism as part of its general subordination of Christ to Caesar. The veneration of the Mosaic and Davidic traditions by the Jesus Christ character is not compatible with serving the interests of an empire that had just triumphed over those traditions. Jesus primarily served God, not Caesar.

The basic logical flaw in all this guff about Roman stooges writing the Gospels is that the hypothesis accepts the deeply insulting and inhuman racist imperial assumption that only rich whites are real people.

The Jesus of the Gospels supports indigenous rights to human dignity, especially through the symbolic transformation of the cross from a political weapon of humiliation of subversives to a spiritual celebration of the power of the meek. The attack on imperial values encapsulated in the idea that Jesus is Lord and God indicates that the Sermon on the Mount and the Last Judgment were written by indigenous rights activists.

The authors of the Gospels saw the presence of the sacred in the people whom the Roman world treated with a haughty backhander to the right cheek. Turn the other cheek is a statement of defiant human dignity against imperial evil.

The New Testament presents a coherent liberationist moral cosmology in which the judgment of God is that Rome is the Evil Empire, the Beast of Babylon. Flavian propaganda interests are totally contrary to the message of the New Testament.