stephan huller

Trobisch sent me a PDF on this very subject said I am "right on the money" but not sure he knows what I am suggesting. Will post here after I finish eating Malay food

Stuart

The Christian/Marcionite author wrote in Greek, was a Greek and no shock Jewish concepts get muddled (Marcionite exegesis of the OT is not exactly the same as Jewish). And in Luke it is the Christian view that matters here not the Jewish. But Exodus 30:12 LXX fits well the Marcionite point here, that the Jews were waiting for the wrong Christ.

The term used in Luke λυτροῦσθαι which is associated with paying ransom to gain release. In the Marcionite theology this has to do with Christ paying in his blood as ransom. It has simply been applied to Israel for the opponents of the Marcionites (Jewish Christians).

The point here is that it is the freedom of Israel, which was a theme on both the coins and letters from Bar Kosiba. (example see Mur 24E לנאלח ׳שראל) . This was a slogan that was known to the opponents as well.

In the first war, when there was a reference (most of the coins said Jerusalem the Holy) it was to Zion, which is where the seat of power was located (Herod's Palace likely was there) in Jerusalem at the time of the Bellum Iudaica.

The point is the slogans and slang changed over those 60 years. And the issues changed.

stephan huller

The Marcionites in Armenia preferred the Hebrew text. Did you check the LXX?

DCHindley

While we have several manuscripts and fragments of the LXX (Greek Translations of Jewish holy books as preserved by Christians) we do not have very many samples of LXX manuscripts preserved by Jews themselves!

I believe that there had been discussions on the predecessor board that note that some very ancient manuscripts use words or characters for God's name YHWH (where it appears in Hebrew) OTHER THAN "KURIOS" (ΚUΡΙΟΣ, Lord), which is the word that the Christians used.

Some argue that the substitution of "Lord" for YHWH is not exactly the same as "nomina sacra." It is also argued that the Christians picked up this word substitution from the Jews themselves, but the evidence for this is extremely sparse. Generally, If some of these ancient LXX mss were copied by Jews as opposed to Christian, then that seemed to have actually written the Hebrew Word YHWH (" יהוה ") or a cypher for it such as ZZ (two Z's with a strike through) or a commonly known Greek equivalent for it such as IW (Iao).

DCH

stephan huller

Don't forget PIPI

DCHindley

Now I'm hungry!

DCH

stephan huller

From David Trobisch:

http://trobisch.com/david/wb/media/a...Publishing.pdf

aa5874

Marcion's Son of God had NO blood--No birth--No earthly mother.

Marcion's Son of God was a Phantom.

andrewcriddle

On the dating of Celsus

There is important internal evidence in Book 8

a/ Christians were being actively persecuted when Celsus was writing. ...and as for you, if any of you transgresses even in secret, he is sought out and punished with death
b/ The Roman Empire is under threat by barbarians and Christian refusal to serve in the armed forces is a threat to society. For if all were to do the same as you, there would be nothing to prevent his being left in utter solitude and desertion, and the affairs of the earth would fall into the hands of the wildest and most lawless barbarians

a/ requires a date either during the persecution under Marcus Aurelius or the persecution under Severus in the very early 3rd century. However b/ the perceived barbarian threat fits the time of Marcus Aurelius better than that of Severus.

Origen believed that Celsus wrote in the time of Hadrian Book 1 And we have heard that there were two individuals of the name of Celsus, both of whom were Epicureans; the earlier of the two having lived in the time of Nero, but this one in that of Adrian, and later. Celsus' work is certainly later than the time of Hadrian and although the same writer could in theory have been active in the time of Hadrian and the time of Marcus Aurelius, Origen is probably confused. However, Origen clearly believes that Celsus is not a recent writer, and it is unlikely that he would have thought this if Celsus had actually written in Origen's own lifetime.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

Your post does not deal with the OP and does not show that there were Christian books in Public Libraries in the Late second century.

The very first thing that Celsus claimed is that Christians were operating in secret which would imply that their teachings were also circulated "underground".

Origen's Against Celsus 1[/u] It is not reasonable at all to expect that the teachings of Christians--Not to worship Man as God or Only Worship Jesus as a God--was in Public Libraries while Christians faced Imminent death once they were known.

Origen's Against Celsus 1.3