Jaybees

50-140 Gospel of Thomas
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
120-180 Gospel of Mary
130-170 Gospel of Judas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
180-250 Gospel of Philip

Duvduv

I was specifically pointing out the fact that it is canonical 4 gospels that recount the outline of the life and death and events of Jesus that are not traced in another set of such gospels.

aa5874

Well, if contradictions are expected and gives credence then there was no reason to attempt to harmonize the Gospels because, based on your view, harmonization would tend to make them appear to be fiction.

It is simply not logical at all that the same person or group of persons who deliberately fabricated FIVE Gospels with almost all contradictions would attempt to harmonize them which would make them appear to be fictitious.

It is far more likely that the stories were composed at an earlier time period by different Jesus cults and were later manipulated in the 4th century or later.

MrMacSon

60-70 sayings of the canonical gospels' Jesus are present in the 'apocryphal' Gospel According to Thomas.

Gospel_of_Thomas

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

Duvduv

That still drifts away from what I was referring to. I was specifically referring to the format of the 4 canonical gospels, of which none exists or existed in the same format with other names or authors.

The Last Supper, the crucifixion, even the nativity, the Baptist, Sermons etc. are not presented with some differences in any other text. Not in the Gospel according to Robert; not in the Gospel according to Jeremy; and not in the Gospel according to Benjamin.

I know about the other formats and logia. But that is not the same thing as the format of the canonical gospels.

mountainman

This is starting to drift away from the OP.

However ......

Found in full in the mid 4th century Nag Hammadi Codices (NHC).


No text exists exception in the NHC.


No text exists.


No text exists except Fragments only - also known as "The Gospel of Gamiliel"



Again there are no textual witnesses.


Only three fragmentary manuscripts are known to have survived into the modern period, two third-century fragments dated via palaeography alone (P. Rylands 463 and P. Oxyrhynchus 3525) published in 1938 and 1983, and a longer fifth-century Coptic translation (Berolinensis Gnosticus 8052,1) published in 1955."



A Coptic manuscript C14 dated to the epoch between 220-340 CE with many people opting for a 4th century date commensurate with the NHC.


Again the only text is witnessed in the mid 4th century NHC.



Again the textual witness is the NHC. Dismissed by Ian Wilson (Jesus: The Evidence, 2000 p.88) who argues that it "has no special claim to an early date, and seems to be merely a Mills and Boon-style fantasy of a type not uncommon among Christian apocryphal literature of the third and fourth centuries."




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman

Look aa5874 stay with the OP in which whether fiction or historical truth the earliest Greek bibles were physically published with distinctively expensive lavish a full colour harmony tables. The OP is addressing the EVIDENCE.

There is a massive controversy being debated over whether the gospels (of which the earliest evidence provides only 4 - the long ending of Mark is NOT, I repeat NO found in the Greek mss) are either HARMONIOUS or CONTRADICTORY.

Please! Please! Let us stand back a moment from this controversy and ask ourselves the simple question as to whether their is some equilibrium point between these two diametrically opposed conclusions.

My position is that it cannot be expected that these 4 gospels which present a total of 650 events/sayings/incidents could all agree in all these 650 events/sayings/incidents. It would like photocopying one gospel to make 4 exactly identical gospels. This situation could not be realistic.

We therefore MUST expect some divergence - some things in one or more gospels not found in the others. The question becomes where is the equilibrium point between seeing either harmony or contradiction. I do not know the answer to this question.

However the OP is about the evidence. The Bible publishers lavishly published 4 harmony tables to preface each gospel. Why did they do this?

Why do you think the harmony tables took pride of place in the earliest Bibles?


Setting aside the question of fiction or history (the OP is not about this!!!) it seems OBVIOUS that no publisher in their right mind would ever think of publishing the antithetical tables of contradictions. Propaganda is propaganda and needed to be seen as true.






εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874

I am dealing with the OP. You are implying that contradictions in the Gospels were harmonized and I am arguing AGAINST you.

I have used the very source that you provided and have shown that of the 160 passages or events in the Gospels that over 80% were not harmonized.

Do you remember what you wrote in your own thread? I am responding to your post in this very thread.

My argument is that your claims are unsubstantiated. You cannot even show that Eusebius actually wrote anything in the 4th century.

You have rejected all the evidence of the Jesus story dated by Paleographers before the 4th century yet is constantly claiming Eusebius forged writings and you have not provided a single C-14 dating for anything supposedly composed by Eusebius.

How is it that you can accept the writings of a supposed forger and admit there was a massive forgery mill but do NOT present C-14 dating for writings attributed to Eusebius?

You have NO paleographic or C 14 dating for Eusebius's writings yet continue to accuse him of forgery.

You must admit that if there was a forgery mill that Eusebius may not have written anything in the 4th century.

You have rejected all NT manuscripts dated by Paleographers before the 4th century so I don't know how you can now accept early manuscripts only at the 4th century which were dated by the same paleographers.

That is exactly what is wrong with your position. You have now realized that it really makes no sense for a person or group of persons to write 4 contradictory Gospels and then attempt to or harmonise them when their audience was illiterate.

Again, there was NO actual harmonization. The harmony tables only exposed that over 80 % of the Gospels stories could NOT be harmonized.

Plus, why are you accepting manuscripts that have been dated hundreds of years after the 4th century by Paleography and still attributing them to Eusebius?

Why don't you reject them as 4th century documents and reject the claim that they were composed by Eusebius?

The earliest so-called Eusebian Canons have been dated AFTER Eusebius was already dead.

You must admit that if there was a forgery mill that The Epistula ad Carpianum (Epistle to Carpian) may have been a forgery.

Again, whether or not the stories of Jesus in the Gospels are history--whether or not the Publishers were in their right minds--the Gospels as we have them are NOT harmonized.

mountainman

You did not answer the question.




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874

You seem to be in denial.

You must mean that you don't like my answer.

Please point out what in gJohn and gMark was harmonized in the 4th century?

Please point what in gJohn and gMatthew that was harmonized in the 4th century?

Please point out what in gJohn and gLuke was harmonized in the 4th century?

Except the claim of the resurrection ONLY ONE miracle of Jesus is found in all four/five Gospels in the Canon.

Again, why do you accuse Eusebius of writing a letter to Carpianus (Epistula ad Carpianum) when you have not produced any C-14 dating and admit there was a forgery mill?

You yourself REJECT all dating by Paleography when they suggest NT manuscripts were composed before the 4th century but have now accepted writings dated by Paleography AFTER Eusebius was dead.

How in the world can you show that there were harmonization of the Gospels in the 4th century by Eusebius WITHOUT C-14 dating??