Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 05-26-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If you ever read the works of Max Weber, you would know that it is impossible for a human being not to bring his values and biases into analyses of social phenomena. So whatever biases I have can only be matched by your own.

More boloney and more word salad

None of which addresses a word I stated

At this modern age no one should be pushing mythology into reality.

Why dont you admit your personally biased and refuse to look at reality historically.?

Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites. That is factual, its not up for debate because you want to follow a man dead for 100 years.

semiopen · 05-26-2013, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

When Jacob Frank died he was "succeeded" by his daughter. However, when he was in Czestechowa Poland he developed the idea that his daughter Eva was the female messiah, and the black madonna. Stephan Huller knows all about it.

I think Stephan thinks you're an idiot.

Black_Madonna_of_Częstochowa

Quote:

The Black Madonna of Częstochowa (Polish: Czarna Madonna or Matka Boska Częstochowska, Latin: Imago thaumaturga Beatae Virginis Mariae Immaculatae Conceptae, in Claro Monte) is a revered icon of the Virgin Mary housed at the Jasna Góra Monastery in Częstochowa, Poland.

Quote:

The difficulty in dating the icon stems from the fact that the original image was painted over, after being badly damaged by Hussite raiders in 1430.

Are you actually arguing that the Black Madonna is Stephan's aunt?

Duvduv · 05-26-2013, 04:32 PM

I don't think it is possible. Eva was never married and had no children, and it is not apparent that her two brothers Roch (died 1813) and Joseph (died 1807) had any children or were even married.
Anyway, I am sure Stephan is old enough to speak for himself. But if he were to consider me an idiot, I would take that as a compliment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

When Jacob Frank died he was "succeeded" by his daughter. However, when he was in Czestechowa Poland he developed the idea that his daughter Eva was the female messiah, and the black madonna. Stephan Huller knows all about it.

I think Stephan thinks you're an idiot.

Black_Madonna_of_Częstochowa

Quote:

The difficulty in dating the icon stems from the fact that the original image was painted over, after being badly damaged by Hussite raiders in 1430.

Are you actually arguing that the Black Madonna is Stephan's aunt?

semiopen · 05-26-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't think it is possible. Eva was never married and had no children, and it is not apparent that her two brothers Roch (died 1813) and Joseph (died 1807) had any children or were even married.
Anyway, I am sure Stephan is old enough to speak for himself. But if he were to consider me an idiot, I would take that as a compliment.

Shrine of Our Lady of Częstochowa

Quote:

The Monastery of Jasna Góra in Częstochowa, Poland, is the third-largest Catholic pilgrimage site in the world. Home to the beloved miraculous icon of Our Lady of Częstochowa, the monastery is also the national shrine of Poland and the center of Polish Catholicism.

Quote:

The miracle for which the Black Madonna of Częstochowa is most famous occurred in 1655, when Swedish troops were about to invade Częstochowa. A group of Polish soldiers prayed fervently before the icon for deliverance, and the enemy retreated. In 1656, King John Casimir declared Our Lady of Częstochowa "Queen of Poland" and made the city the spiritual capital of the nation.

Quote:

The Virgin again came to the aid of her people in 1920, when the Soviet Russian Red Army gathered on the banks of the Vistula River, preparing to attack Warsaw. The citizens and soldiers fervently prayed to Our Lady of Częstochowa, and on September 15, the Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows, she appeared in the clouds above Warsaw. The Russians were defeated in a series of battles later dubbed the "Miracle at the Vistula."

Eve Frank certainly had an interesting life as the Black Madonna.

steve_bnk · 05-26-2013, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Look, Steve. You and I both know that it is humanly impossible to pinpoint the creation, so save your energy for other arguments. The creation of the universe is beyond human comprehension and our concepts of time and space. That's why dating creation to billions of years ago makes no sense. If God created the universe he did it beyond our conceptions of time and space, so what appears within our definitions of time and space to be billions of years is not really the case. Haven't you ever studied some teachings of the Vedas? Go read some of the books of Alan Watts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Another common theist approach used in Creationism vs Evolution.

It boils down to asserting science is as much faith as religion, therefore wrongly concluding Creationism is just as scientifically valid as Evolution.

Or atheists have as much 'faith' in the non existence of god as theists have faith in existence of god, therefore the two sides are equal.

You keep claiming bias, but you do not present the basis for your belief in Exodus, the specific op topic.

Alan Watts.. Nah. was never into that New Age Buddhist-Zen-Christian-LSD synthesis stuff . I was part of the psychedelics without any of the spiritual mumbo jumbo crowd. First half of the 70s for me was mostly sex, intoxication, and music.

Vedas was with the Hindu-Hare Krishna types. I read Tibetan mysticism until I realized the true esoteric' truths were not paranormal at all, it was a psychology.

I managed to keep my sister from being sucked into Edgar Cayce.

In the 70s I hung out with a local 3HO Kundalini American Sikh convert ahram doing their yoga . Mostly out of curiosity.

So, I have some grasp of religion related to faith versus skepticism and how religion/mythology works on the faithful. After all, I was raised in Catholic mysticism.

Stated yet again.

I reject the biblical Exodus based on the presented logistics reasons, and the lack of physical evidence and the lack of any contemporary accounts other than the bible..

My point on creationism is you are running the usual gamut of theist arguments ending in a typical dead end, resorting to claiming we skeptics are relying on a religious like faith.

You are confused. we do not have faith it did not happen,we see no evidence. Most of us when push comes to shove might say sure, it may have happened.But then Leprechauns may be real as well. We can not prove the negative which is why the religious claimant carries the burden of proof..Faith is belief without any objective proof or evidence. Skepticism is rejection of claim without objective proof. Skepticism and faith are polar opposites.

Your belief is based on what?

Duvduv · 05-26-2013, 06:29 PM

The Tel el Amarna letters/tablets are pretty interesting, aren't they??
Watch out for those Habiru!

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

600,000 warriors/people on the move is not an exodus under duress.

It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

steve_bnk · 05-26-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Tel el Amarna letters/tablets are pretty interesting, aren't they??
Watch out for those Habiru!

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

600,000 warriors/people on the move is not an exodus under duress.

It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

Detail your case. Pull out the details and summarize what you think it means. I do not think you can.

After a quick review it would appear any case you make is contingent on what you assume for a chorology. As there is no evidence, you have to assume a date for Exodus based on assumed biblical chorology, very susceptible to conformation bias..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna_letters

'...Despite a long history of inquiry, the chronology of the Amarna letters, both relative and absolute, presents many problems, some of bewildering complexity, that still elude definitive solution. Consensus obtains only about what is obvious, certain established facts, and these provide only a broad framework within which many and often quite different reconstructions of the course of events reflected in the Amarna letters are possible and have been defended. ...The Amarna archive, it is now generally agreed, spans at most about thirty years, perhaps only fifteen or so.[4]..'

1.

2.

3...therefore Exodus occurred.

andrewcriddle · 05-27-2013, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The kingdom of David supposedly existed over 400 years before Herodotus visited Palestine. The kingdoms of Israel and Judah were conquered by the Assyrians and Babylonians. There were no independent Jewish or Samaritan kingdoms at the time of Herodotus' visit to Palestine.

However there certainly were Yahwist communities in Palestine in the 5th century BCE. See for example the reference in an Elephantine payrus dated 407 BCE to the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem.

Herodotus appears to have visited the coast of Palestine and not to have gone inland. This may explain why there are no clear mentions of the Jews.

Andrew Criddle

Sure but who were those 'yawehists'. We have no way of knowing what the demographics were. The Christian cultural myth is the Jews were a monolithic group ordained by a deity with a continuous monolithic history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri

'...The Jews had their own Temple to Yahweh[1] which functioned alongside that of the local ram-headed deity, Khnum.[2] The "Petition to Bagoas" (Sayce-Cowley collection) is a letter written in 407 BCE to Bagoas, the Persian governor of Judea, appealing for assistance in rebuilding the Jewish temple in Elephantine, which had recently been badly damaged by an anti-Semitic rampage on the part of a segment of the Elephantine community.[3]///

The papyri suggest that "even in exile and beyond the worship of a female deity endured."[9] The texts were written by a group of Jews living at Elephantine near the Nubian border, whose religion has been described as "nearly identical to Iron Age II Judahite religion".[10] The papyri describe the Jews as worshiping Anat-Yahu (or AnatYahu). Anat-Yahu is described as either the wife[11] (or paredra, sacred consort)[12] of Yahweh or as a hypostatized aspect[13] of Yahweh.[14][15]..'

Nothing to infer a Jewish state in Palestine of biblical stature, and further muddies the waters as to what Jewish means circa 400- 500BCE. You will have a hard time just defining the term Jew with any precision.

Jews in the period 500-400 BCE were to a greater or lesser extent unorthodox by later Jewish standards. The Elephantine Jews probably particularly so.

However the letter I quoted from indicates that Jews in Egypt (and probably throughout the Persian Empire) were regarded as coming under the supervision of a/ the Persian governor(s) of Palestine b/ the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem. This indicates a 5th century Jewish community centred around Jerusalem seen as the homeland of Jewish groups in other parts of the Persian Empire.

There clearly was not a 5th century Jewish state of the stature of say the books of Kings but the Bible does not suggest otherwise. The Biblical Jewish state had been destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were subjects of the Persian Empire. Herodotus almost certainly visited Palestine before the reforms of Nehemiah. At this time Jerusalem would have been an unwalled city with very little autonomy.

Andrew Criddle

steve_bnk · 05-27-2013, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Sure but who were those 'yawehists'. We have no way of knowing what the demographics were. The Christian cultural myth is the Jews were a monolithic group ordained by a deity with a continuous monolithic history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri

'...The Jews had their own Temple to Yahweh[1] which functioned alongside that of the local ram-headed deity, Khnum.[2] The "Petition to Bagoas" (Sayce-Cowley collection) is a letter written in 407 BCE to Bagoas, the Persian governor of Judea, appealing for assistance in rebuilding the Jewish temple in Elephantine, which had recently been badly damaged by an anti-Semitic rampage on the part of a segment of the Elephantine community.[3]///

The papyri suggest that "even in exile and beyond the worship of a female deity endured."[9] The texts were written by a group of Jews living at Elephantine near the Nubian border, whose religion has been described as "nearly identical to Iron Age II Judahite religion".[10] The papyri describe the Jews as worshiping Anat-Yahu (or AnatYahu). Anat-Yahu is described as either the wife[11] (or paredra, sacred consort)[12] of Yahweh or as a hypostatized aspect[13] of Yahweh.[14][15]..'

Nothing to infer a Jewish state in Palestine of biblical stature, and further muddies the waters as to what Jewish means circa 400- 500BCE. You will have a hard time just defining the term Jew with any precision.

Jews in the period 500-400 BCE were to a greater or lesser extent unorthodox by later Jewish standards. The Elephantine Jews probably particularly so.

However the letter I quoted from indicates that Jews in Egypt (and probably throughout the Persian Empire) were regarded as coming under the supervision of a/ the Persian governor(s) of Palestine b/ the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem. This indicates a 5th century Jewish community centred around Jerusalem seen as the homeland of Jewish groups in other parts of the Persian Empire.

There clearly was not a 5th century Jewish state of the stature of say the books of Kings but the Bible does not suggest otherwise. The Biblical Jewish state had been destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were subjects of the Persian Empire. Herodotus almost certainly visited Palestine before the reforms of Nehemiah. At this time Jerusalem would have been an unwalled city with very little autonomy.

Andrew Criddle

ok

Cheerful Charlie · 05-27-2013, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Tel el Amarna letters/tablets are pretty interesting, aren't they??
Watch out for those Habiru!

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

600,000 warriors/people on the move is not an exodus under duress.

It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

Habiru does not mean Hebrew of course. it was an ancient Akkadian word meaning "people of the dust", the class of unsettled people at the lowest end of the socio-economic scale. Sometimes working as mercinaries. Note that the Amarna letters shows no signs of 2 1/2 million Israelites. 50 Egyptian archers is deemed enough to put an end to the attacks in the neighborhood.

Cheerful Charlie

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