Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 01:52 PM

Often times discovering the right answer is figuring out a way to approach the problem in a different angle - i.e. from a 'weak side' that allows for a solution.

Some more thoughts.

I am beginning to think that the library at Tyre had a greater Judeo-Christian collection. Consider for a moment, the Hexapla's presence there (haven't found the reference but Jerome or Photius are probably it) and then the fact that Porphyry wrote his Against the Christians probably from the same city and - perhaps - using the same library. He had to have access to (a) the Book of Daniel and (b) the gospels and probably (c) the writings of Origen, Robert McQueen in his book on Origen's Stromateis thinks Porphyry based his book on that text.

The bottom line with respect to libraries containing Christian material - not all libraries but some certainly.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:01 PM

I didn't know this but it makes sense

Quote:

Irenaeus'Adversus haereses is attested in Egyptian Greek manuscripts, and was probably introduced into Egypt via Rome. The early proto-orthodox Christians of Alexandria used Irenaeus. Cf. Colin H. Roberts, Manuscript, Society and Belief in early Christian Egypt (London: Oxford University Press/British Academy, 1979), 13–14. http://books.google.com/books?id=J9R...%BD%22&f=false

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:08 PM

If I had a siren I'd put it beside this statement. Very significant.

Quote:

Much work has been done in this field by Harry Gamble, who believes that early Christian texts were being disseminated throughout the ancient world soon after their completion.69 Archaeological evidence supporting this position has been found in Egypt, where fragments of Irenaeus's Against Heresies have been unearthed, despite the fact that the text could not have been completed anywhere close to the country (Irenaeus was the Bishop of Gaul).70 The key to this discovery was that the fragment was dated only about twenty years after the text itself was written. This suggests that the text traveled a great distance soon after its completion.http://books.google.com/books?id=x8L...ter%22&f=false

The text continues immediately:

Quote:

Furthermore, a fragment of John's Gospel dating from the early second century has been found in Egypt, suggesting that the Christian Gospels were in circulation quite soon after their completion. Other scholars support Gamble's conclusions. D. Moody Smith argues that the Gospels are misinterpreted if viewed only as regional worship documents.71 Often, scholars claim that the Gospels acted as spiritual guides for an individual church community such as Matthew's. This certainly is true to some extent. Each community was dealing with local issues, and these issues would vary depending upon geographical location. But even if the texts were originally designed to be read only during a local church service, it is likely that they also addressed a broad number of issues that were relevant at the end of the first century C.E.72 As they became holy texts, the Gospels became spiritually important beyond their original authors' intentions. The Gospels eventually became lasting universal "scriptures."73 After all, Justin Martyr already was indicating that the Gospels were read during Sunday worship services.74

Richard Bauckham also makes the case that the Gospels were disseminated quickly as important Church documents. In fact, he believes that there was a sophisticated "network" of Christian communities that were in constant contact with one another.76 1 am not prepared to accept Bauckham's latter hypothesis concerning the quick circulation of information is right on the mark. It is clear that early Christian texts such as Paul's letters and the Gospels circulated rapidly, as the Papias fragment and the letters of Ignatius indicate.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:20 PM

I figured out where the fragments of Irenaeus were discovered in Egypt:

See Roberts (Early Christian Egypt, 14, 24) in reference to some fragments of Irenaeus which, making their way from Gaul, quickly appear in Oxyrhynchus

Roger Pearse · 09-14-2013, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watersbeak

Quote:

"According to the 19th century writer, Titus Mooney Merriman, it seems that Origen's works were found in the public library at Tyre."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh4...20tyre&f=false

How does anyone know if "Origen's works" had been placed in a library at Tyre, or anywhere else, during Origen's lifetime?

The link refers to the Hexapla, does it not?

Eusebius in his Church History book 6 tells us that Origen went to Caesarea.

Jerome tells us in his Commentarioli in Psalmos (ed. Morin, 5, or so Quasten says) that he saw the Hexapla in Caesarea, and that it was the only copy he had ever seen of it.

Origen died and was buried in Tyre (so Jerome, De viris illustribus 54), from the effects of the torture in the Decian persecution. Not sure where the "Tyre" link comes from otherwise.

I will see if I can find the Jerome text.

Update: edition is here, page 5, line 16:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerome

Non sic impii. Id quod secundo dicitur 'Non sic', in Hebraeis voluminibus non habetur, sed ne in ipsis quidem Septuaginta interpretibus: nam e(caplou=j Origenis in Caesariensi bibliotheca relegens semel tantum scriptum repperi.

Not so the impious. This which says for the second time 'Not so' is not found in the Hebrew volumes, but only in some of the versions of the Septuagint itself. For rereading the Hexapla of Origen in the library of Caesarea, I have discovered it often written thus.

Translation mine. Which does not quite accord with what Quasten says, curiously. Once again, it shows that we must always verify references.

But this does show the presence of the Hexapla in Caesarea in the early 5th century.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:23 PM

Here is the reference:

P. Oxyrhynchus 405, Irenaeus's Against Heresies. This is a late second-century Oxyrhynchus fragment having part of Irenaeus's Against Heresies, which itself was written in AD 180. As C. H. Roberts said, "The ink was hardly dry before a copy of Irenaeus's famous work reached Oxyrhynchus!" http://books.google.com/books?id=nPV...opy%22&f=false

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:25 PM

More info:

Quote:

P. Oxyrhynchus 37, P. Oxyrhynchus 405, and P. Oxyrhynchus 406 from around the early third century AD display other comparable examples of the form of handwriting in this manuscript fragment. http://books.google.com/books?id=Z1A...405%22&f=false

and from this http://religion.princeton.edu/main/f...%20Century.pdf we read:

Quote:

Some of these rolls belonged in studious milieus, such as an elegantly written copy of Irenaeus’s Adversus haeresis on a fresh roll (P.Oxy. III 405)

and the footnote reads:

Quote:

P.Oxy. III 405. Oxyrhynchus, 2nd/3rd cent. Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, on the recto of a roll. VAN HAELST, Catalogue, p. 240, describes the handwriting as: “très belle écriture littéraire”. See also VAN HAELST 671; LDAB 2459

and from this http://religion.princeton.edu/main/f...%20Century.pdf we read:

Quote:

How do these insights in the use of rolls and the inscription of Christian manuscripts affect our understanding of the two rolls with the Gospel of Thomas? Conceivably, the neatly written, freshly used roll of P.Oxy. IV 655 with its short lines functioned as a church piece, although the small size of the letters complicates reading out loud and thus would contradict hypotheses of its use in a larger worship gathering45. It may indeed have been a copy intended for reading at home and display to friends46. The other roll, P.Oxy. IV 654, emits more ambivalent material signs. As mentioned above, this text was penned not just on a roll, but on a previously used piece. Resourcefully, the ancients often copied writings on the back of earlier used texts, documentary or literary. We find this, for example, also for copies of Hebrews and Revelation47.

How should we evaluate the use of such texts? According to Roberts, “any texts written on the back of a roll or sheet discarded as waste declare themselves to be private copies, a view at times borne out by the manner of writing”. He mentions our papyrus, P.Oxy. IV 654, among them48. Yet Roberts warns that not all texts written on the back of other documents should be interpreted solely as “casual or occasional” and gives examples of reused manuscripts that probably belonged to scholars49. Furthermore, he cautions from the example of P. Ryl. I 1, a copy of Deuteronomy:

not all texts written on improvised material need have been private. It may have been a paper shortage or just poverty that led one church to economize by sticking together sheets of papyrus already written on one side, fold them, and so form a makeshift codex out of the unwritten sides; this was then used, about the year 300, to take a copy of Deuteronomy whose public character is strongly suggested by the addition of lectional aids – accents, breathings, punctuation, critical signs – to a carefully corrected text50.

I wonder whether Roberts looked with canonical hindsight as he shelved one manuscript made from reused materials, the now biblical text
of Deuteronomy, among the public readings, but classified another manuscript with lectional aids of a now apocryphal book, the Gospel of Thomas, among the private copies? If we apply his insights, the Thomas papyrus may indeed have been a private copy but could also have been
in the possession of a scholar or even a cash-strapped church51.

and then the last footnote:

Quote:

GAMBLE, Books and Readers (n. 28), pp. 80-81, proposed that one late second century Christian roll, P.Oxy. III 405, a copy of Irenaeus, Adv. haer., “could suggest that works of scholarship, as distinct from scriptural texts, persisted for a while in roll form in Christian scholastic circles”.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:39 PM

Here it is

Roger Pearse · 09-14-2013, 02:47 PM

Origen lived and worked at Caesarea. Pamphilus worked there also, and of course Eusebius studded his texts with quotations. The library was at Caesarea, I think; not Tyre.

stephan huller · 09-14-2013, 02:47 PM

Here is the relevant section from The Oxyrhynchus papyri (1898)

Quote:

405 consists of seven fragments written in a small neat uncial hand, which is not later than the first half of the third century, and might be as old as the latter part of the second. The ordinary contractions 6s, j(?, «?? occur ; and it is clear that the use of these goes back far into the second century. Besides its early date (it is probably the oldest Christian fragment yet published), 405 is interesting on account of a quotation from St. Matthew Hi. 16-7 describing the Baptism, which is indicated by wedge-shaped signs in the margin similar to those employed for filling up short lines, e. g. in Fr. (a) 11. 9 and 13. http://archive.org/stream/oxyrhynchu...e/n29/mode/2up

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09-14-2013, 01:52 PM	#151
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Often times discovering the right answer is figuring out a way to approach the problem in a different angle - i.e. from a 'weak side' that allows for a solution. Some more thoughts. I am beginning to think that the library at Tyre had a greater Judeo-Christian collection. Consider for a moment, the Hexapla's presence there (haven't found the reference but Jerome or Photius are probably it) and then the fact that Porphyry wrote his Against the Christians probably from the same city and - perhaps - using the same library. He had to have access to (a) the Book of Daniel and (b) the gospels and probably (c) the writings of Origen, Robert McQueen in his book on Origen's Stromateis thinks Porphyry based his book on that text. The bottom line with respect to libraries containing Christian material - not all libraries but some certainly.

09-14-2013, 02:20 PM	#154
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I figured out where the fragments of Irenaeus were discovered in Egypt: See Roberts (Early Christian Egypt, 14, 24) in reference to some fragments of Irenaeus which, making their way from Gaul, quickly appear in Oxyrhynchus

09-14-2013, 02:23 PM	#156
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is the reference: P. Oxyrhynchus 405, Irenaeus's Against Heresies. This is a late second-century Oxyrhynchus fragment having part of Irenaeus's Against Heresies, which itself was written in AD 180. As C. H. Roberts said, "The ink was hardly dry before a copy of Irenaeus's famous work reached Oxyrhynchus!" http://books.google.com/books?id=nPV...opy%22&f=false

09-14-2013, 02:39 PM	#158
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here it is

09-14-2013, 02:47 PM	#159
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Origen lived and worked at Caesarea. Pamphilus worked there also, and of course Eusebius studded his texts with quotations. The library was at Caesarea, I think; not Tyre.

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