Toto

Closed for review.

This is not the sort of discussion that makes this board worth reading. Adam repeats the same empty claims that "no one has refuted me" and Shesh goes ballistic with overly colorful language.

I gather that no one else is reading this. . .

Sabine Grant

:blank:

Adam

(Continued from Post #109, #87, #1; Selection #4.)
For this second pass through of Gospel Eyewitnesses not already listed in Early Aramaic Gospels, the Lucan selections from Special Luke shown bracketed likely were in Aramaic as well, but the Lucan passages from q2 (in regular type) were already in Greek. Ellipses represent filler material. The Marcan passages are from an Ur-Marcus already in Greek before it was taken into Mark or Luke. Similarly, the first 12 chapters here from John are from the Signs Source (by Andrew) already in Greek probably from the first. John 13 and thereafter here I attribute to the Apostle John himself. Certain uniquely Matthean sections are included where the content is paralleled in the Gospel of Thomas or even where the Jesus Seminar affirmed them as from Jesus.

In the first pass I presented
Early Aramaic Gospels ,
ostensibly qT in Mark from the Apostle Matthew as well as q1 itself in Luke from him as well. The selections in John started with Discourses from Nicodemus as the eyewitness, then switched to the Passion Narrative from John Mark as the eyewitness. Now in this second pass I show the Passion Narrative expanded with Peter’s testimony as the Greek Ur-Marcus now shown as in Mark following here, being the verses in which there is verbal exactitude with Luke (or even with John). In Luke I show q2 (possibly from the same origin as Ur-Marcus, as Peter is listed in Luke 12:41, and in brackets I show the unique material in Luke 3 to 24 I attribute to Simeon.

Luke 11:
[1 He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.]

2* And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread; * 4* and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation."
[5 And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him'; 7 and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything'? 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs. ]
9* * And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for * a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" 14* * Now he was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Be-elzebul, the prince of demons"; 16* while others, to test him, sought from him a sign from heaven. 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Be-elzebul. 19 And if I cast out demons by Be-elzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace; 22 but when one stronger than he assails him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoil. 23* He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 24* "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 25 And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

[27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" 28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"]
29* * When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, "This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son of man be to this generation. 31* The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. 32* The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 33* "No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a bushel, but on a stand, that those who enter may see the light. 34* Your eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is sound, your whole body is full of light; but when it is not sound, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light."

Luke 12:
[1* In the meantime, when so many thousands of the multitude had gathered together that they trod upon one another, he began to say to his disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.]
2* Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. 4* * "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5* But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; * yes, I tell you, fear him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7* Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows

[13 One of the multitude said to him, "Teacher, bid my brother divide the inheritance with me." 14 But he said to him, "Man, who made me a judge or divider over you?" 15 And he said to them, "Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." 16 And he told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; 17 and he thought to himself, 'What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' 18 And he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.' 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."]

22* And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24* Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25 And which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his span of life? * 26 If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? 27* Consider the lilies, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; * yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if God so clothes the grass which is alive in the field today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O men of little faith! 29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be of anxious mind. 30* For all the nations of the world seek these things; and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, seek his * kingdom, and these things shall be yours as well.

[32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.]
33* Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
[35 "Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the marriage feast, so that they may open to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants.]

39* But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would have been awake and * would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42* * And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish * him, and put him with the unfaithful.

[47 And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. 49 "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! 50 I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished.]

Luke 13:
[1 There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." 6 And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, 'Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?' 8 And he answered him, 'Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. 9 And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'" 10 Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity." 13 And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be healed, and not on the sabbath day." 15 Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead it away to water it? 16 And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" 17 As he said this, all his adversaries were put to shame; and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.]

18* He said therefore, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches." 20* And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."

[22* He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23* And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25* When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' 26* Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' 27 But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!]

[31 At that very hour some Pharisees came, and said to him, "Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you." 32 And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course. 33 Nevertheless I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.]
34* O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 35* Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Composer

Were the NT Gospels written by eye witnesses?
" There is no evidence to suggest that any of the gospels were written by eye witnesses of the events described in them. . . . . "


Strangely I was not permitted to Post the Original Source Link for this statement because I have to wait for Posting 5 Posts?

I would have thought it was a pre-requisite to provide the Source immediately? This is as close as I can provide under those conditions for now! -

(Source: atheisttoolbox.com/bible_facts.php?fact_id=21)

outhouse

You havnt provided a credible explanation.


You have provided a personal fantasy such as "Early Aramaic Gospels"



And keep posting cherry picked scripture. Over and Over and Over again.




You still have not refuted why a Jewish eyewitness would write for his Roman oppressors, In Syria, for non-Jews. All 40 years after jesus death.




I have given you a wide birth with patients, for you to build a credible case. Im still waiting.

Adam

Coming from a newbie, this could be ignored, but the very next post from a seasoned member shows as little knowledge of my threads, combined with a continued smug certainty that he can argue from his own assumptions without evidence. The meaning of "evidence" seems quite problematic here at FRDB.

Let's parse the above statement. It's not far wrong, if limited to just the four canonical gospels. Current scholars would rarely make a case for an eyewitness writer for an entire gospel except for John. I agree that even for it, I cannot make a good case for him except for a small portion of gJohn plus editing practically the entirety. My argument is for seven written eyewitness records is for seven portions of the four gospels.

In my thread http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....ramaic+gospels
Early Aramaic Gospels I presented evidence that some records were written even while Jesus was alive. The Discourses in gJohn start when Jesus first encounters Nicodemus, who thereafter wrote down what Jesus said. He started with what he didn't like about what Jesus said, but changed to writing from the standpoint of a believer. That Matthew wrote Q1 follows from the sayings starting only after he had been called by Jesus. He wrote little about the earlier John the Baptist--those portions of Q occur in Q2 where there is close parallelism in Greek between gMatthew and gLuke. The Passion Narrative is even more tightly focusses from where the author John Mark first meets Jesus.

In this current thread the eyewitness records come from a decade or more later. John Mark was not an eyewitness of much of the Gospel of Mark, but Peter was. The portions of Mark with close verbal parallels in Luke are from him. (Most of the rest of Mark, the Twelve-Source, I listed in Early Aramaic Gospels as from Matthew, but it could have been Peter's early Aramaic expansion of Q1.) Other than for the Nativity, the material unique to gLuke starts at a later stage of Jesus's ministry where he meets a Simon (Luke 7:36-50) and continues through the Resurrection appearance apparently to a Simon. (I show this in brackets in this current thread.) The Signs Gospel in gJohn gives the name Andrew quite often in the first twelve chapters, and the narrative therein come from him. Unnamed, but apparently called the Beloved Disciple in the rest of gJohn, John the Apostle is the seventh eyewitness I list.

For a more elegant statement, see my Post #450 in http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....nesses&page=18
Gospel eyewitnesses
or the more complete detail in posts #1, #!8,#38, #52, #74, #132, and #144, and #170.

Sheshbazzar

You have presented no such evidence.

You have presented no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that Nicodemus ever wrote even a single sentence of the Gospels.

You have presented no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that 'Matthew' ever wrote even a single sentence of the Gospels.
You have presented no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that 'Peter' ever wrote even a single sentence of the Gospels.
You have presented no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that 'Andrew' ever wrote even a single sentence of the Gospels.

You have presented no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that 'John the Apostle' ever wrote even a single sentence of the Gospels.


There are no such things as any known or identifiable 'Gospel Eyewitness Sources'.

Your theory is composed out of nothing more than your imaginations and your speculations that are totally lacking in any positive textual evidence.

You willfully distort the actual total content of these texts, through your selective omissions of material that is present within all existing examples.

You cannot produce even one single genuine early example of the 'gutted' form of these texts that you pretend existed.

You cannot cite even one single early witness to the existence of any such 'gutted' form of these texts as you pretend existed

You have completely failed to in any manner provide any proof at all that any of the characters that you theorize as being 'Gospel witnesses' and writers, ever wrote even one single verse of The Gospels.

Your imaginative 'might have been' claims and assertions are still vacuous, are without any shred of evidence or of substance, and are without merit.

.

Composer

As Sheshbazzar correctly also stated, you have presented diddly squat for your eye-witness now ' Lost Cause '.

Above is an extract from your fatal admission!

Let me parse your fatal admission for you -

1. The entire legitimate evidence for a literal biblical, miracle working jebus = zero!


2. Can we examine your evidence for a literal biblical Nicodemus?

a) We know already there is NO literal Historical biblical jebus, so this mythical biblical jebus could never have literally encountered any body!


3. We know already there is NO literal Historical biblical jebus, so this mythical biblical jebus could never have literally encountered any body!

a) Hypothetically speculating there could have been such a character; there is NO legitimate evidence to prove this other character Nicodemus NOR any one else necessarily recorded the truth of what was allegedly said?

b) At best ALL alleged testimony such as that is 100% hearsay and e.g. Judge Judy or ANY Judge would throw ' hearsay ' out of court, as inadmissible!


4. Innocence Project Frees 250th Innocent Person

Posted on: February 12, 2010 9:02 AM, by Ed Brayton

With the exoneration and release of a New York man who was convicted 33 years ago for a rape he did not commit, the Innocence Project has now freed its 250th wrongly convicted person in 21 years. They released a report on this milestone that looks at how those wrongful convictions came about, which is particularly important because those convictions were based on the kinds of evidence used in court every day.

Among the report's key findings:
• There have been DNA exonerations in 33 states and the District of Columbia.

• The top three states for DNA exonerations are New York (with 25), Texas (with 40) and Illinois (with 29).

• 76% of the wrongful convictions involved eyewitness misidentification. (Emphasis by Composer)

(Source: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2...utm_medium=rss)

Adam

Is this the same "Composer" from Theology Web? He didn't do very well over there.
The "jebus" spelling makes him appear like a sock-puppet for Sheshbazzar.

Sheshbazzar

Anyone here stupid enough to buy that?

Adam has imagination, but is no better at identifying sources in this Forum than he is at identifying sources in the Gospels.