Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-18-2013, 11:31 PM

This is also very significant:

Quote:

Patterson effectively challenges the heresy-hunter Epiphanius's appropriation, a century later, of Methodius as an antagonist to Origen. He argues that Epiphanius probably invented Methodius's designation as a bishop and martyr, which he is the first person to attest, in order to enhance his prestige as an opponent of Origen. Martyrdom, if poorly attested, is not improbable, given that he did not survive the Great Persecution. The picture Patterson presents is of an independent thinker whose relationship to Origen is more complex than we might assume from Epiphanius. To begin with, he places Methodius in a broader theological context than simple reaction to Origen. While depending heavily on Origen, Methodius made creative use of Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria as well. (Clement has also, if to a lesser extent than Methodius, been obscured by Origen's shadow; an incidental reference and footnote suggest that Irenaeus's influence on Clement needs further study.) Patterson goes so far as to claim that, "The chief theological themes of the Symposium are the result of a working together of elements of Irenaeus grand view of the economy of salvation and Clement's preoccupation with the freeing of souls from the passions in anticipation of the final perfection of both souls and bodies"http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&typ...patterson.html

I say that we know very little about the positive aspects of Irenaeus's beliefs. All we have are reactions to 'heresy.' The similarities with Clement are rather superficial and may go back to a common Alexandrian heritage.

stephan huller · 05-18-2013, 11:39 PM

Musurillo on Methodius's borrowing from Irenaeus

Quote:

As Bonwetsch especially shows, Methodius is in basic agreement with Irenaeus in his doctrine of the fall of man and the Atonement; on Adam; on the providential purpose of the penalty of death after the fall (cf. n. 33 above). On the typology of Adam's birth (from virgin earth) see J. P. Smith's version of Irenaeus' Proof of the Apostolic Preaching §32 (ACW 16.68) ; and on Moses' tabernacle as a pattern of heaven and a type of the Church, ibid. §§26 and 29 (64 f, 67). For the literature on Irenaeus, see Quasten 1.287 ff. It is clear that the Christian community in which Methodius received his formation was deeply under the influence of Irenaeus, and, ultimately, of Pauline theology; but this solid pattern is curiously blended with Alexandrianism and with Methodius's personal mysticism. [http://books.google.com/books?id=_Se...sm%22&f=false]

But I say why isn't 'Methodius' considered to be the 'positive' aspect of Irenaeus's beliefs. In other words, Irenaeus and Methodius come from the same historical writer.

stephan huller · 05-19-2013, 08:43 AM

Could Eusebius's Maximus have been the Platonist Maximus of Tyre who lived at the very same time? His understanding of the relationship of matter and evil seems uncannily similar

* The true answer to this most important question, which is but imperfectly solved by*Maximus,*is as follows: The habitude or relation which divinity has to things differs from that of ours; and again, things are related to divinity in a manner different from their relation to us: for there is one kind of relation of wholes to parts and another of parts towards each other. With reference to divinity, therefore, nothing is*evil,*not even among things which are called evils, for these he employs to beneficent purposes. But, on the other hand, with respect to partial natures, there is a certain*evil*with which they are naturally connected; and the same thing is*evilto a part, but to the universe and to wholes good. For so far as a thing has being, and so far as it participates of order, it is good.In short, there is no*evil*which is not, in a certain respect good, because the beneficent illuminations of Providence extend to all things, and even irradiate the dark and formless nature of*matter. Evil,*therefore, neither subsists in intellectual natures, for the whole intellectual order is void of*evil,*nor in souls or bodies which rank in the universe as*wholes;*for all*wholes*are free from*evil*on account of theirperpetually*subsisting according to nature. Hence*evil*must either subsist in partial souls, or in partial bodies, but yet not in the essences of these, because all their essences are of divine origin; nor in their powers, for these subsist according to nature. It remains, therefore, that*evil*must subsist in their energies. But among souls it cannot be in the energies of such as are rational, for all these aspire after good; nor in the energies of such as are irrational, for these energize according to nature; but it must take place*in*the*privation*of*symmetry*between*the*two .*And with respect to bodies,*evil*can neither subsist in their form, for it desires to rule over*matter,*nor inmatter,*for it aspires after the supervening irradiations of form; but in the*asymmetryof*form*with*respect*to*matter.*From hence, likewise, it is evident that every thing*evilhas nothing more than a shadowy kind of being; that at the same time it is coloured by good; that, consequently, all things are good through the will of divinity; and that evenevil*is necessary to the perfection of the universe, as without its shadowy nature generation could not subsist. See more on this very interesting subject in the introduction to my translation of five books of Plotinus. The above observations are extracted from that introduction, and are derived from the very adytum of Platonic philosophy.

stephan huller · 05-19-2013, 09:04 AM

Maximus of Tyre very closely resembles the Platonic theology of Maximus/Methodius and strangely for a Platonist acknowledges the existence of free will and understands it to be at least partially responsible for the existence of evil in the world (Dissertation 41). http://books.google.com/books?id=Dn5...tput=html_text This is at the core of the argument in Maximus's On Matter/Methodius's On Free Will

stephan huller · 05-19-2013, 09:06 AM

Methodius is connected with Tyre by Jerome

stephan huller · 05-19-2013, 10:06 AM

The "dissertations" of Maximus of Tyre survive with the subscription "philosophumena" the very name of an expanded version of Irenaeus's Against Heresies which survived at Mount Athos http://books.google.com/books?id=Ooz...ed=0CC4Q6AEwAg Ramelli sees the title of Hippolytus's work as deriving from a contemporary genre epitomized by Hierocles's work of the same name directed as it was against various philosophical "sects" (= heresies). In short another circumstantial reason for connecting Irenaeus to his contemporary Maximus of Tyre

ph2ter · 05-20-2013, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Someone has to translate and make widely available all this stuff from Methodius that survives only in Slavonic. There is literally piles of stuff that only exists in German. I have always thought Methodius is earlier than the fourth century. My guess again is something closer to the third century - despite the obvious problem of Against Proclus (= late third century). Notice that the parallel material in Adamantius is really directed against Origen raising the question of whether 'Proclus' and 'Valentinus' are later repackaging of original material directed against Origen.

Russian translations can be accessed at http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Mefodij_Olimpijskij/

stephan huller · 05-20-2013, 09:44 AM

Thank you. The translation of De Lepra is particularly significant. I notice again the translator makes reference to significant differences between the Greek and Slavonic throughout

stephan huller · 06-03-2013, 09:34 AM

I sent an email to my friend Michael Trapp of King's College who happened to have authored a new translation of Maximus a while back asking if there are any parallels between Maximus the Platonist and Maximus the Platonist Christian. Here is his email:

Quote:

Dear Stephan,

I'm sorry you've had to wait so long for an answer from me. Your message arrived just as our exam period started, so my mind has been on other things for the last fortnight.

I've taken look, and have to say that I can see no grounds for identifying Eusebius's Christian Maximus in PE 7.22 with Maximus of Tyre: style, language, and conceptual level all seem to me different enough to rule it out. Not only is there no evidence that the Tyrian Maximus ever wrote dialogues; we don't see him either developing a line of argument of any kind with this depth and persistence; and he doesn't use the technical terminology seen in Eusebius's man.

For what it is worth, Eusebius's Maximus looks pretty Christian to me (e.g. at 7.22.55, where he treats the existence of theoi (plural) as an absurd counter-factual); but I am not expert in the early Christian Platonists, so may not be judging this right.

The overlap between your texts looks intriguing – best of luck in trying to sort it out!

Best wishes,

Thank God for the British and European scholars generally. They always seem so genuinely interested in new things and willing to answer strange queries like this.

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05-19-2013, 08:43 AM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Could Eusebius's Maximus have been the Platonist Maximus of Tyre who lived at the very same time? His understanding of the relationship of matter and evil seems uncannily similar * The true answer to this most important question, which is but imperfectly solved byMaximus,is as follows: The habitude or relation which divinity has to things differs from that of ours; and again, things are related to divinity in a manner different from their relation to us: for there is one kind of relation of wholes to parts and another of parts towards each other. With reference to divinity, therefore, nothing isevil,not even among things which are called evils, for these he employs to beneficent purposes. But, on the other hand, with respect to partial natures, there is a certainevilwith which they are naturally connected; and the same thing isevilto a part, but to the universe and to wholes good. For so far as a thing has being, and so far as it participates of order, it is good.In short, there is noevilwhich is not, in a certain respect good, because the beneficent illuminations of Providence extend to all things, and even irradiate the dark and formless nature ofmatter. Evil,therefore, neither subsists in intellectual natures, for the whole intellectual order is void ofevil,nor in souls or bodies which rank in the universe aswholes;for allwholesare free fromevilon account of theirperpetuallysubsisting according to nature. Henceevilmust either subsist in partial souls, or in partial bodies, but yet not in the essences of these, because all their essences are of divine origin; nor in their powers, for these subsist according to nature. It remains, therefore, thatevilmust subsist in their energies. But among souls it cannot be in the energies of such as are rational, for all these aspire after good; nor in the energies of such as are irrational, for these energize according to nature; but it must take placeintheprivationofsymmetrybetweenthetwo .And with respect to bodies,evilcan neither subsist in their form, for it desires to rule overmatter,nor inmatter,for it aspires after the supervening irradiations of form; but in theasymmetryofformwithrespecttomatter.From hence, likewise, it is evident that every thingevilhas nothing more than a shadowy kind of being; that at the same time it is coloured by good; that, consequently, all things are good through the will of divinity; and that evenevil*is necessary to the perfection of the universe, as without its shadowy nature generation could not subsist. See more on this very interesting subject in the introduction to my translation of five books of Plotinus. The above observations are extracted from that introduction, and are derived from the very adytum of Platonic philosophy.

05-19-2013, 09:04 AM	#44
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Maximus of Tyre very closely resembles the Platonic theology of Maximus/Methodius and strangely for a Platonist acknowledges the existence of free will and understands it to be at least partially responsible for the existence of evil in the world (Dissertation 41). http://books.google.com/books?id=Dn5...tput=html_text This is at the core of the argument in Maximus's On Matter/Methodius's On Free Will

05-19-2013, 09:06 AM	#45
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Methodius is connected with Tyre by Jerome

05-19-2013, 10:06 AM	#46
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The "dissertations" of Maximus of Tyre survive with the subscription "philosophumena" the very name of an expanded version of Irenaeus's Against Heresies which survived at Mount Athos http://books.google.com/books?id=Ooz...ed=0CC4Q6AEwAg Ramelli sees the title of Hippolytus's work as deriving from a contemporary genre epitomized by Hierocles's work of the same name directed as it was against various philosophical "sects" (= heresies). In short another circumstantial reason for connecting Irenaeus to his contemporary Maximus of Tyre

05-20-2013, 09:44 AM	#48
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Thank you. The translation of De Lepra is particularly significant. I notice again the translator makes reference to significant differences between the Greek and Slavonic throughout

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