Toto

Melul seems to come from the Book of Jasher.

Duvduv

Yes, it is in the Sefer Hayashar. But I think it is found elsewhere as well.

Sarpedon

The Conventional Chronology of Egypt lists the accepted names of the Pharaohs, as well as well-known alternates (EG Khufu/Cheops). It is called that because it represents the scholarly consensus. It is not some obscure thing.

Melul is neither a primary name nor a common alternate. I do not think it is too much to ask for serious scholars to identify a person by the name that is accepted by the scholarly consensus.

Yes, I do question the motives of people who posit the existence of historical figures, then refuse to give any sort of context to their supposed life and deeds. Much is known of Egyptian history: Why won't your scholars just call the man by his real name? Why wasn't his real name written in the bible to begin with?

I am not proposing any conspiracy theory. I merely think the Exodus is a tall tale, and like many tall tales, is set 'once upon a time' or the equivalent: no particular time, just long ago. So the Pharaoh isn't a real person, he's a stock character, like the King or Princess in a european fairy tale: No one in particular, with generic attributes. People then accepted this fairy tale as history, and have tried unsuccessfully to harmonize this with other known history. How can I be proposing a conspiracy, when no one seems to agree on who this person is? You say he was a dwarf named 'Melul,' other scholars say 'Thutmosis III' or 'Ahmose I' or 'Horemhab.'

The lack of consensus and evidence supports the idea of confusion and ignorance, not conspiracy.

Duvduv

Charlie, you also seem to be stuck in a conceptual problem. SINCE NO ONE alive today was around then, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny the Exodus. That is your hypothesis, but it cannot be proven. On the other hand, I was ALSO not there, so I cannot PROVE it happened. You rely on some sources and I rely on others. The archaeologists are not greater prophets than the prophets of the Tanakh. And 100 years of excavation cannot provide proof either. ALL YOU CAN PROVIDE ARE INTERPRETATIONS OF DATA. PERIOD.

Cheerful Charlie

I have seen estimates that to come up with a final total of some 2 1/2 millions over 430 years starting with 75 people meant each generation needed 63 children from a set of parents to work out mathematically. Col. Bob Ingersol mentions that the OT tells us the Israelites had two midwives, as Ingersol put it, "They had to be the busiest midwives in history".

As to the pharoah of the Exodus, the Bible mentions Ramses the city the Israelites built, meaning pir Ramses, Ramses II. But the Exodus tall tale tells us God led the Israelites through the wilderness to avoid the Philistines on the coast. The Philistines were settled there in camps after their defeated invasion in the 8th year of Rameses III.
So Exodus must be post Rameses III. By the time of Rameses VI, Egypt as a regional power had collapsed and the last Egyptian garrisons in the region were pulled out under Rameses VI. Note that in all of Exodus, Numbers, Joshua et al, the area is singularly free of Egyptians. Exodus knows nothing of Rameses II's war with the Hittites, or Merneptah's raids on the 9 Bows, or Rameses III's military raids in Southerrn Syria post the invasion of the Sea Peoples. Post Rameses VI, the pharoahs became mere figureheads, Egypt's chief priests ran what left of the government and we know little more about the pharoahs of that time.

The mention of fierce Philistines on the coast God wished to avoid, and lack of Egyptians in Exodus era Palestine argue that if we take the Bible seriously at all as sober history, the exodus took place post Rameses VI approximately.

Wikipedia, Rameses VI
Ramesses VI Nebmaatre-Meryamun (also written Ramses and Rameses) was the fifth ruler of the Twentieth dynasty of Egypt who reigned from 1145 BC to 1137 BC and a son of Ramesses III by Iset Ta-Hemdjert. His royal tomb, KV9, is located near Tutankhamun's tomb in the Valley of the Kings.

The problem is that timewise this does not work out historically speaking. We still have 40 years until Joshua leads the Israelites to victory, by which time in the real world, the hilltop settlementss of Israel were a century old. And none of these cities were destroyed post Rameses VI.

Cheerful Charlie

Sarpedon

By the way, are you claiming that the Midrashic books are prophetic?

Cheerful Charlie

Hard evidence on the ground is hard evidence that the Torah is faux history. Those that were there built their hilltop settlements. No Egyptianisms as you'd expect from a people who allegedly starting with 7 illiterate shepherds, became a numerically vast people in Egypt over 430 years.

The supposed history across the red sea is impossible, Joshua did not destroy the numerous cities the Torah claims he did. Hard evidence demonstrates that they were ruins long before any Israelite could have been in the era. The archaological facts tell us all we need to know.

The early Israelites were merely Canaanites who were never in Egypt. All you can provide is bad interpretations with an agenda that in the name of mighty Interpretation, ignores all known archaeological facts.

The Torah is false, untrue, is faux history. The prophets here were liars. The ridiculous numbers of fleeing Israelites of Numbers 2 simply is not credible as any sort of fact on the ground at Kadesh Barnea for 38 years. All the cities Joshua supposedly destroyed were ruins long before Israelites were in the area. Many Egyptian tombs of various personages tell us their titles, their accomplishments. Not one mentions dealing with controlling vast swarms of Israelite slaves, who the Torah tells us outnumber the Egyptians 2 to 1. And on and on the evidence goes.

Ignoring facts does not make the facts go away.

Cheerful Charlie

Duvduv

Interpretation of observed data is not the same thing as empirical evidence. We both know that, so why do you pretend otherwise?

Duvduv

No, actual prophecy ended with Malachi. Midrashim contain many other things including mystical ideas, but not prophecy, which was restricted to the prophetic writings. There is a lower level which can be called Divine Inspiration, which is called Ruach Hakodesh.
Some people use the term prophecy broadly and generically to refer to the abilityof accurate predictions or intuition, butitis not the same thing as real prophecy.

Sarpedon

Please explain the significance of the distinction you are trying to make.

To me, observed data is the evidence. What alternative is there to interpreting it?