Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jdboy · 06-17-2013, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by jdboy

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Originally Posted by aa5874

What is Atwill's argument in Caesar's Messiah?

Atwill's argument is based on the works of Josephus. That when you look at the Jesus story as a series of prophecies you will find them fulfilled in "Wars of the Jews".

There's more to Atwill's argument than that. Atwill thinks that the gospels were written as a deliberate hoax to fool the Jews into worshipping Titus. He thinks that there was a forgery factory that used Josephus as a template to write the religious literature of the Christians. He tries to show this by listing the parallels between Josephus and the gospels.

He has convinced very few people, but he was able to put together a professionally produced documentary containing interviews with other scholars who do not support him but at least take him seriously for the length of the interview.

But this doesn't actually explain why these forgeries attracted any sort of a following, at least until some later Roman Emperors put the force of the Roman state behind them.

Yes, but this is why it did attract a following it was from the beginning a covert operation of the Flavians. Which really was aimed at showing the Flavians as worthy of divinity. Atwill i think is being a bit cynical stating they were trying to
fool the jewish people into worshiping Titus. The Jesus story is more than just about Titus, as Chili reminds us there is a theology.

Atwill's work i think will hold up over time. It's a very straight foreword argument. The only issue i see is that he is too political. It's like he wants to use this against christianity the way christianity used it against judaism.

aa5874 · 06-17-2013, 10:12 PM

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Originally Posted by jdboy

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by jdboy

I see no better argument than Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. It answers all the questions

What is Atwill's argument in Caesar's Messiah?

Atwill's argument is based on the works of Josephus. That when you look at the Jesus story as a series of prophecies you will find them fulfilled in "Wars of the Jews".

If Atwill's argument is based on Josephus's writings then he does not answer the question at all.

In Josephus' "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4, Vespasian was the PROPHESIED MESSIANIC ruler found in Jewish Scripture--NOT Jesus.

Wars of the Jews 6.5.4

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But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth."

The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah and Savior in Josephus.

Wars of the Jews 7.4

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......and for those whom he passed by, they made all sorts of acclamations, on account of the joy they had to see him, and the pleasantness of his countenance, and styled him their Benefactor and Savior, and the only person who was worthy to be ruler of the city of Rome.

The same thing is corroborated by Tacitus Histories 4 and Suetonius "Life of Vespasian"

Vespasian carried out MIRACLES by making the Blind See with Spittle and healing the lame with a touch.

[Tacitus Histories 4

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One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many superstitions, worships more than any other divinity.

He begged Vespasian that he would deign to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle.

Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feet the print of a Caesar's foot. .................................................. .......The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood..

Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah, Savior and Healer of the Roman Empire--Not Jesus of Nazareth born of a Ghost.

James The Least · 06-17-2013, 10:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by TedM

This is open to all views with regard to history and the Bible and Jesus, with the one assumption that it Jews were among the early believers:

I'm curious what the main 1 or 2 reasons is that Christianity took hold among early JEWS.

What did the Jews respond to, and why?

Jews were not among the early Christians.

There is a series called Jewish Believers in Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) which is the result of a long-term academic inquiry into this very subject. Christianity was demonstrably a Jewish cult at its inception.

I need a summary of the best evidence, not "read this 900 page book."

Proto-Christianity probably was involved with some Joudaioi at some stage. The question is, where were they located, and what was their ethnicity? Joudaioi could belong to any race.

As Jake Jones stated in a different thread:

Joan E. Taylor demonstrated there exists no archeological evidence of Jewish-Christians in Judea in the first century CE. See _Christians and the Holy Places: The Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins_, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1993. The holy places and the phenomenon of Christian pilgrimage can be traced to only the fourth century.

outhouse · 06-17-2013, 11:12 PM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

There is a series called Jewish Believers in Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) which is the result of a long-term academic inquiry into this very subject. Christianity was demonstrably a Jewish cult at its inception.

I need a summary of the best evidence, not "read this 900 page book."

Proto-Christianity probably was involved with some Joudaioi at some stage. The question is, where were they located, and what was their ethnicity? Joudaioi could belong to any race.

As Jake Jones stated in a different thread:

Joan E. Taylor demonstrated there exists no archeological evidence of Jewish-Christians in Judea in the first century CE. See _Christians and the Holy Places: The Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins_, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1993. The holy places and the phenomenon of Christian pilgrimage can be traced to only the fourth century.

Which doesn't mean anything.

It surely doesn't show that they did not exist.

The movement was obviously, a sect of Judaism.

You will have a hard time explaining away the use of the OT

maryhelena · 06-17-2013, 11:18 PM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

There is a series called Jewish Believers in Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) which is the result of a long-term academic inquiry into this very subject. Christianity was demonstrably a Jewish cult at its inception.

I need a summary of the best evidence, not "read this 900 page book."

Proto-Christianity probably was involved with some Joudaioi at some stage. The question is, where were they located, and what was their ethnicity? Joudaioi could belong to any race.

As Jake Jones stated in a different thread:

Joan E. Taylor demonstrated there exists no archeological evidence of Jewish-Christians in Judea in the first century CE. See _Christians and the Holy Places: The Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins_, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1993. The holy places and the phenomenon of Christian pilgrimage can be traced to only the fourth century.

All that indicates is that Judea was not the place where early christian history finds it's roots. It does not rule out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

aa5874 · 06-18-2013, 04:21 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

All that indicates is that Judea was not the place where early christian history finds it's roots. It does not rule out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

The fundamental source for the Jesus story is BOLTED to it--The Septuagint [the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture]

The Jesus character who was supposed to be Jewish appears fluent in Greek in the earliest stories.

In gMark, Jesus gives his main disciple a Greek name--PETER--the Greek word for 'Rock'.

It is only in the LATER gJohn that the author realized that Jesus was supposed to be Jewish and claimed the main disciple was given the name CEPHAS--a Hebrew word for 'Rock'.

Now, based on Josephus, the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, was in Alexandria of Egypt.

Virtually, all the RECOVERED NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story were either found in Egypt or were bought in Egypt.

Incredibly, little or no Early Greek NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story have been found or bought in Judea or any of the region of the supposed Seven Pauline Churches.

Even, apocryphal manuscripts have been found in Egypt and ALL supposed Heretics were Non-JEWS and some were originated from Egypt.

maryhelena · 06-18-2013, 05:04 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

All that indicates is that Judea was not the place where early christian history finds it's roots. It does not rule out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

The fundamental source for the Jesus story is BOLTED to it--The Septuagint [the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture]

The Jesus character who was supposed to be Jewish appears fluent in Greek in the earliest stories.

In gMark, Jesus gives his main disciple a Greek name--PETER--the Greek word for 'Rock'.

It is only in the LATER gJohn that the author realized that Jesus was supposed to be Jewish and claimed the main disciple was given the name CEPHAS--a Hebrew word for 'Rock'.

Now, based on Josephus, the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, was in Alexandria of Egypt.

Virtually, all the RECOVERED NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story were either found in Egypt or were bought in Egypt.

Incredibly, little or no Early Greek NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story have been found or bought in Judea or any of the region of the supposed Seven Pauline Churches.

Even, apocryphal manuscripts have been found in Egypt and ALL supposed Heretics were Non-JEWS and some were originated from Egypt.

Nothing you wrote above rules out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

aa5874 · 06-18-2013, 05:28 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

All that indicates is that Judea was not the place where early christian history finds it's roots. It does not rule out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

The fundamental source for the Jesus story is BOLTED to it--The Septuagint [the Greek version of Hebrew Scripture]

The Jesus character who was supposed to be Jewish appears fluent in Greek in the earliest stories.

In gMark, Jesus gives his main disciple a Greek name--PETER--the Greek word for 'Rock'.

It is only in the LATER gJohn that the author realized that Jesus was supposed to be Jewish and claimed the main disciple was given the name CEPHAS--a Hebrew word for 'Rock'.

Now, based on Josephus, the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, was in Alexandria of Egypt.

Virtually, all the RECOVERED NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story were either found in Egypt or were bought in Egypt.

Incredibly, little or no Early Greek NT Manuscripts of the Jesus story have been found or bought in Judea or any of the region of the supposed Seven Pauline Churches.

Even, apocryphal manuscripts have been found in Egypt and ALL supposed Heretics were Non-JEWS and some were originated from Egypt.

Nothing you wrote above rules out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

I just showed you the Jewish source--the Septuagint was derived from a Jewish source.

If you know of another source then please identify it because you have not yet identified another Jewish source for the Jesus story.

The authors of the Jesus stories did state that the events about Jesus in the story itself happened because they were found in the books of the Prophets which is in the Septuagint version.

For example, the conception of Jesus is found in the Septuagint version of Isaiah 7.14.

The Jesus character was Conceived out of the Septuagint.

"Behold a Virgin shall conceive" is found in the Septuagint.

James The Least · 06-18-2013, 06:48 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

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Originally Posted by Davka

There is a series called Jewish Believers in Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) which is the result of a long-term academic inquiry into this very subject. Christianity was demonstrably a Jewish cult at its inception.

I need a summary of the best evidence, not "read this 900 page book."

Proto-Christianity probably was involved with some Joudaioi at some stage. The question is, where were they located, and what was their ethnicity? Joudaioi could belong to any race.

As Jake Jones stated in a different thread:

Joan E. Taylor demonstrated there exists no archeological evidence of Jewish-Christians in Judea in the first century CE. See _Christians and the Holy Places: The Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins_, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1993. The holy places and the phenomenon of Christian pilgrimage can be traced to only the fourth century.

All that indicates is that Judea was not the place where early christian history finds it's roots. It does not rule out a Jewish source for the gospel Jesus story.

The key thing is the ethnicity of the Joudaoi.

Iskander · 06-18-2013, 07:20 AM

What got Christianity started?

Rabbi Michael J. Cook PhD, Modern Jews Engage the New Testament. Jewish Lights Publishing, Woodstock, Vermont.2008, ISBN 1580233139. In pages 38, 39 he writes,

“Christianity, still deeply bonded to Judaism, accepted and based itself on the Jewish scriptures, citing these texts to make claims for itself...

Christianity continued to be Jewish also in taking over completely Judaism’s premium on ethical requirements as intrinsic to religion, something largely missing in paganism, and therefore perceived by some Gentiles as uniquely challenging and elevating.

Replicating Judaism’s synagogue structure and its networking enabled Christianity to offer a cohesiveness that pagan religions (commonly organized as local enclaves) could not match.

Moreover, Judaism at this point in its history, was modelling a creative and successful missionary style that also allowed for attracting and accepting in a kind of secondary status, Gentiles whom it styled God-fearers.

Christianity promised acceptance as full members while allowing them to bypass the barriers of Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Through this, God-fearers became the agents in publicizing Christianity’s appeal to pagans.

Christianity was cast as offering a harmonious mix of the high religion of monotheistic Judaism along with eternal life and a loving God to those who simply believed and rendered obedience to basic moral laws---all the while without insisting on conditions that very few gentiles could accept.”

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06-18-2013, 07:20 AM	#230
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	What got Christianity started? Rabbi Michael J. Cook PhD, Modern Jews Engage the New Testament. Jewish Lights Publishing, Woodstock, Vermont.2008, ISBN 1580233139. In pages 38, 39 he writes, “Christianity, still deeply bonded to Judaism, accepted and based itself on the Jewish scriptures, citing these texts to make claims for itself... Christianity continued to be Jewish also in taking over completely Judaism’s premium on ethical requirements as intrinsic to religion, something largely missing in paganism, and therefore perceived by some Gentiles as uniquely challenging and elevating. Replicating Judaism’s synagogue structure and its networking enabled Christianity to offer a cohesiveness that pagan religions (commonly organized as local enclaves) could not match. Moreover, Judaism at this point in its history, was modelling a creative and successful missionary style that also allowed for attracting and accepting in a kind of secondary status, Gentiles whom it styled God-fearers. Christianity promised acceptance as full members while allowing them to bypass the barriers of Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Through this, God-fearers became the agents in publicizing Christianity’s appeal to pagans. Christianity was cast as offering a harmonious mix of the high religion of monotheistic Judaism along with eternal life and a loving God to those who simply believed and rendered obedience to basic moral laws---all the while without insisting on conditions that very few gentiles could accept.”

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