Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-22-2013, 07:49 AM

Quote:

A basilica is the form of the early Christian church, a central high nave with clerestory, lower aisles along the sides only,

basilica: Typical plan. A, D, apse; B, B’, secondary apse; C, high altar; D, bishop’s throne; G, transept; H, nave; J, J’, aisles with a semicircular apse at the end. Often preceded by a vestibule (narthex) and atrium. In larger basilicas, there are often transepts, and sometimes five aisles. St. Peter's basilica is an example of this type of architecture.

Round or polygonal churches with domed tops (also known as "central plan" churches) were favorite designs of Byzantine architects. The Hagia Sophia in Istanbul is an example of a central plan church.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6203352AAWRw9B

Interestingly, I thought they were just fashionable styles, and were used together, as at Florence. Isn't it more to do with technological competence? Yer wealthy show off builds the high tech dome, the plebs use developments of the classic temple?

All the Pantheon's fault of course!

Sarpedon · 05-22-2013, 08:16 AM

Yes, early churches built under the auspices of the Byzantine Emperors tended to be centralized in plan: That is to say square with a dome or tower in the center. The oldest one is in Ravenna, which was the capitol of the Western Empire for a while. The Baptistry in Florence, the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, as well as Charlemagne's chapel in Aachen are of this model. They do indeed appear to have the Pantheon as their ultimate inspiration. Most Orthodox churches still follow this model.

However, the competing model was personified by Old St Peter's in Rome. (as opposed to the current, or New St Peters, which exists today, which is also a basilica) This is the prototype of basilica style churches. These were largely modeled off of secular roman architecture: the courthouse (basilica) and to a lesser extent, the great baths.

Small churches consisted only of a nave. As churches grew, structural requirements required the addition of aisles, leading to three and eventually five aisled churches. The nave is counted as an 'aisle' in this terminology. Aisles supported the lofty nave, and lent a pleasing cascading effect to the massing from the exterior. Since this was a technological, rather than a stylistic element, the centralized, eastern churches also exhibit this characteristic, and it is one of the distinctive elements of the 'romanesque' style.

Clivedurdle · 05-23-2013, 05:04 AM

These buildings enabled very different styles of worship to the old temple really private sacrificial ways or the very specialist rituals in a cave of the secret cults.

I propose theology follows architecture and technology.

The basilica enabled a large group to witness and participate in the sacrifice, which was formalised, no longer a large bull pouring its blood over a priest standing underneath it, done in the privacy of the temple, or the private ceremonies of the priests within the veil of Judaism. This is to do with the ability to build large wide spans, instead of the crowded columns of the classic temples.

The adaptation of public court buildings is of note, we are looking at the democratisation of religion - the Greek idea of the polis getting out of the rain and the sun into a large building against the Persian, tyrannical ways of the supreme leader and the one true god who of course the Persian Christ has access to (Cyrus and Darius).

As with all syncretism, bits of the old are dragged along, especially facing East - why should not everyone experience the transformational experience of the dawn going into the caves at the end of an all night oriental ritual (See Gore Vidal Julian for a description of this).

More and more people leads to issues of crowding, so both aisles and domes are used to solve this.

These buildings are so wonderful they develop rituals over a life - the baptistry to welcome the new members, the main church to enact a new very ritualised ceremony with only wafers and wine.

The towers as at Pisa are developed to create the stairway to heaven.

The gospel stories I propose follows the architecture, the story of the Jesus being born, living and dying actually are formalising of these changes in thinking and technologies.

I would carefully check the writings we have to see if any references to structures, institutional or physical, might betray the real date of something.

Clivedurdle · 05-23-2013, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Ravenna, which was the capitol of the Western Empire

I thought Ravenna was a Byzantine capital?

Ah got it!

Quote:

In AD 402, Emperor Honorius transferred the capital of the Western Roman Empire from Milan to Ravenna. The transfer was made partly for defensive purposes: Ravenna was surrounded by swamps and marshes, and was perceived to be easily defensible (although in fact the city fell to opposing forces numerous times in its history); it is also likely that the move to Ravenna was due to the city's port and good sea-borne connections to the Eastern Roman Empire. However, in 409, King Alaric I of the Visigoths simply bypassed Ravenna, and went on to sack Rome in 410 and to take Galla Placidia, daughter of Emperor Theodosius I, hostage. After many vicissitudes, Galla Placidia returned to Ravenna with her son, Emperor Valentinian III and the support of her nephew Theodosius II. Ravenna enjoyed a period of peace, during which time the Christian religion was favoured by the imperial court, and the city gained some of its most famous monuments, including the Orthodox Baptistery, the so-called Mausoleum of Galla Placidia (she was not really buried there), and San Giovanni Evangelista.

The late 400s saw the dissolution of Roman authority in the west, and the last person to hold the title of emperor in the West was deposed in 476 by the general Odoacer. Odoacer ruled as King of Italy for 13 years, but in 489 the Eastern Emperor Zeno sent the Ostrogoth King Theoderic the Great to re-take the Italian peninsula. After losing the Battle of Verona, Odoacer retreated to Ravenna, where he withstood a siege of three years by Theoderic, until the taking of Rimini deprived Ravenna of supplies. Theoderic took Ravenna in 493, supposedly slew Odoacer with his own hands, and Ravenna became the capital of the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy. Theoderic, following his imperial predecessors, also built many splendid buildings in and around Ravenna, including his palace church Sant'Apollinare Nuovo, an Arian cathedral (now Santo Spirito) and Baptistery, and his own Mausoleum just outside the walls.

The Mausoleum of Theoderic.

Theoderic and his followers were Arian Christians, but co-existed peacefully with the Latins, who were largely Orthodox. Ravenna's Orthodox bishops carried out notable building projects, of which the sole surviving one is the Capella Arcivescovile. Theoderic allowed Roman citizens within his kingdom to be subject to Roman law and the Roman judicial system. The Goths, meanwhile, lived under their own laws and customs. In 519, when a mob had burned down the synagogues of Ravenna, Theoderic ordered the town to rebuild them at its own expense.

Theoderic died in 526 and was succeeded by his young grandson Athalaric under the authority of his daughter Amalasunta, but by 535 both were dead and Theoderic's line was represented only by Amalasuntha's daughter Matasuntha. Various Ostrogothic military leaders took the kingship of Italy, but none were as successful as Theoderic had been. Meanwhile, the orthodox Christian Byzantine Emperor Justinian I, opposed both Ostrogoth rule and the Arian variety of Christianity. In 535 his general Belisarius invaded Italy and in 540 conquered Ravenna. After the conquest of Italy was completed in 554, Ravenna became the seat of Byzantine government in Italy.

From 540 to 600, Ravenna's bishops embarked upon a notable building program of churches in Ravenna and in and around the port city of Classe. Surviving monuments include the Basilica of San Vitale and the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare in Classe, as well as the partially surviving San Michele in Africisco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna

I understand the various Arian barbarians to be vassals of Constantinople, and the alleged Western Roman Empire to be subsidiary to the East. I follow Gibbon and see the end of the Roman Empire as either 1452 or 1917! Arguably it is still around with the Orthodox Church and its heretical child Roman Catholicism!

Actually, why is not Islam understood as a result of the Roman and Persian Empires?

Sarpedon · 05-23-2013, 06:37 AM

Breathe easy son.

Architecturally, of course the modern image of the mosque arose quite late, when the Haggia Sofia was converted into one. The later Blue mosque harmonized the orthodox and islamic elements, and became the prototype of mosques today.

Prior to these, mosques frequently hearkened back to commercial structures. The vast arcade of the great mosque of Cordoba, for example, resembled a covered market, or souk.

Clivedurdle · 05-25-2013, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

These buildings enabled very different styles of worship to the old temple really private sacrificial ways or the very specialist rituals in a cave of the secret cults.

I propose theology follows architecture and technology.

The basilica enabled a large group to witness and participate in the sacrifice, which was formalised, no longer a large bull pouring its blood over a priest standing underneath it, done in the privacy of the temple, or the private ceremonies of the priests within the veil of Judaism. This is to do with the ability to build large wide spans, instead of the crowded columns of the classic temples.

The adaptation of public court buildings is of note, we are looking at the democratisation of religion - the Greek idea of the polis getting out of the rain and the sun into a large building against the Persian, tyrannical ways of the supreme leader and the one true god who of course the Persian Christ has access to (Cyrus and Darius).

As with all syncretism, bits of the old are dragged along, especially facing East - why should not everyone experience the transformational experience of the dawn going into the caves at the end of an all night oriental ritual (See Gore Vidal Julian for a description of this).

More and more people leads to issues of crowding, so both aisles and domes are used to solve this.

These buildings are so wonderful they develop rituals over a life - the baptistry to welcome the new members, the main church to enact a new very ritualised ceremony with only wafers and wine.

The towers as at Pisa are developed to create the stairway to heaven.

The gospel stories I propose follows the architecture, the story of the Jesus being born, living and dying actually are formalising of these changes in thinking and technologies.

I would carefully check the writings we have to see if any references to structures, institutional or physical, might betray the real date of something.

Quote:

The octagon had been a common shape for baptisteries for many centuries since early Christian times. The number eight is a symbol of regeneration in Christianity, signifying the six days of creation, the Day of Rest, and a day of re-creation through the Sacrament of Baptism.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Baptistery

Ok, I will fess up, I discovered this via Dan Brown's Inferno!

But seriously, why should not old and amended stories have been developed in both architecture and writings, with nothing historical there at all?

Sarpedon · 05-27-2013, 07:21 AM

Christian architecture is full of numerological significance. It helps that christians assign a theological significance to virtually every number below ten.

And the aisles are really there for structural reasons. The taller the nave gets, the more buttressing to the sides it requires. Aisles are a consequence.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-22-2013, 08:16 AM	#12
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Yes, early churches built under the auspices of the Byzantine Emperors tended to be centralized in plan: That is to say square with a dome or tower in the center. The oldest one is in Ravenna, which was the capitol of the Western Empire for a while. The Baptistry in Florence, the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, as well as Charlemagne's chapel in Aachen are of this model. They do indeed appear to have the Pantheon as their ultimate inspiration. Most Orthodox churches still follow this model. However, the competing model was personified by Old St Peter's in Rome. (as opposed to the current, or New St Peters, which exists today, which is also a basilica) This is the prototype of basilica style churches. These were largely modeled off of secular roman architecture: the courthouse (basilica) and to a lesser extent, the great baths. Small churches consisted only of a nave. As churches grew, structural requirements required the addition of aisles, leading to three and eventually five aisled churches. The nave is counted as an 'aisle' in this terminology. Aisles supported the lofty nave, and lent a pleasing cascading effect to the massing from the exterior. Since this was a technological, rather than a stylistic element, the centralized, eastern churches also exhibit this characteristic, and it is one of the distinctive elements of the 'romanesque' style.

05-23-2013, 05:04 AM	#13
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	These buildings enabled very different styles of worship to the old temple really private sacrificial ways or the very specialist rituals in a cave of the secret cults. I propose theology follows architecture and technology. The basilica enabled a large group to witness *and participate in* the sacrifice, which was formalised, no longer a large bull pouring its blood over a priest standing underneath it, done in the privacy of the temple, or the private ceremonies of the priests within the veil of Judaism. This is to do with the ability to build large wide spans, instead of the crowded columns of the classic temples. The adaptation of public court buildings is of note, we are looking at the democratisation of religion - the Greek idea of the polis getting out of the rain and the sun into a large building against the Persian, tyrannical ways of the supreme leader and the one true god who of course the Persian Christ has access to (Cyrus and Darius). As with all syncretism, bits of the old are dragged along, especially facing East - why should not everyone experience the transformational experience of the dawn going into the caves at the end of an all night oriental ritual (See Gore Vidal Julian for a description of this). More and more people leads to issues of crowding, so both aisles and domes are used to solve this. These buildings are so wonderful they develop rituals over a life - the baptistry to welcome the new members, the main church to enact a new very ritualised ceremony with only wafers and wine. The towers as at Pisa are developed to create the stairway to heaven. The gospel stories I propose follows the architecture, the story of the Jesus being born, living and dying actually are formalising of these changes in thinking and technologies. I would carefully check the writings we have to see if any references to structures, institutional or physical, might betray the real date of something.

05-23-2013, 06:37 AM	#15
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Breathe easy son. Architecturally, of course the modern image of the mosque arose quite late, when the Haggia Sofia was converted into one. The later Blue mosque harmonized the orthodox and islamic elements, and became the prototype of mosques today. Prior to these, mosques frequently hearkened back to commercial structures. The vast arcade of the great mosque of Cordoba, for example, resembled a covered market, or souk.

05-27-2013, 07:21 AM	#17
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Christian architecture is full of numerological significance. It helps that christians assign a theological significance to virtually every number below ten. And the aisles are really there for structural reasons. The taller the nave gets, the more buttressing to the sides it requires. Aisles are a consequence.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.