Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Net2004 · 08-13-2013, 03:25 AM

why do christians reject jewish oral torah?

spin · 08-13-2013, 04:32 AM

Christians see Jesus as the fulfillment of the torah, so oral torah would be superfluous to them. Why should they consider it?

Net2004 · 08-13-2013, 04:44 AM

do the christians believe that the stories in the mishna and talmud go all the way back to moses? if not, why do they not accept them as authentic?

Quote:

Christians see Jesus as the fulfillment of the torah, so oral torah would be superfluous to them. Why should they consider it?

semiopen · 08-13-2013, 04:49 AM

Aren't the only Chrisians that accept the oral torah members of the weirdo sect?

Toto · 08-13-2013, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

do the christians believe that the stories in the mishna and talmud go all the way back to moses?

Apparently no - see http://messiahfactor.com/page55.html

Quote:

Is it true that the Oral Law was given to Moses at Sinai and passed down from generation to generation? Or was it much more recent, originating in the teachings of the Pharisees in the second century BCE and written down after the fall of the Second Temple? That is what we will look at in this article.

In fact there are about 220 references to the singular word ‘Torah’ meaning ‘teaching, instruction, law’ in the Tenach. There are 11 references to Torot in the plural (Genesis 26.5, Exodus 16.28, 18.16, 18.20, Leviticus 26.46, Isaiah 24.5, Ezekiel 43.11, 44.5, Psalm 105.45, Daniel 9.10, Nehemiah 9.13). Every time the word is used in the plural in the books of Moses, it refers to teachings and instructions which were given by God in the text. In none of these passages is there any suggestion of two Torahs, one written and one oral. . . .

Net2004 · 08-13-2013, 08:44 AM

So christians agree that their are inventions made up by men in the oral torah? Did the rabbis use the same mnemonic techniques for both pre written torah and oral torah? I know we dont know but christians through the holy spirit tell us that rabbis used mnemonic to preserve written torah, but they could use mnemonic to preserve lies, says the christian.

semiopen · 08-13-2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

So christians agree that their are inventions made up by men in the oral torah? Did the rabbis use the same mnemonic techniques for both pre written torah and oral torah? I know we dont know but christians through the holy spirit tell us that rabbis used mnemonic to preserve written torah, but they could use mnemonic to preserve lies, says the christian.

I sort of agreed with your OP, ie Christians reject the Oral Torah.

After that you have somehow taken the opposite position.

The Oral Torah is an invention of the rabbis who were active more or less concurrently with early Christianity. Why would Christians accept this invention? Do you have any references that would shed some light on what you are talking about?

semiopen · 08-13-2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

So christians agree that their are inventions made up by men in the oral torah? Did the rabbis use the same mnemonic techniques for both pre written torah and oral torah? I know we dont know but christians through the holy spirit tell us that rabbis used mnemonic to preserve written torah, but they could use mnemonic to preserve lies, says the christian.

Trying to decide if Net's post is offensive.

Theoretically there are some things in the Talmud that were passed down from Moses. These are few and far between, and are not actually identified.

A lot of the stuff is from later authorities, such as

Damages_(Jewish_law)

Quote:

Rabbinic culture developed and interpreted the laws of damages through communal courts, judges, and enforcement.

Where Net may get offensive is implying that the Talmud is filled with lies. There are things in the Talmud that aren't true, such as

Spontaneous_generation. This isn't so much a lie as simply a mistaken understanding of how things work. The idea that Oral Law was passed down from Moses to the Rabbis in an unbroken chain is also, of course, not true. Again, I would hesitate to call this a lie however.

Another offensive part is the implications that Christians have a superior understanding of the Torah. This is more ludicrous than anything else.

The mentioning of mnemonics is peculiar. The fact that it's mentioned here without a link in conjunction with "preserve lies" smells anti-Semitic.

MNEMONICS OR MEMORA TECHNICA

Quote:

MNEMONICS OR MEMORA TECHNICA (Heb. סִימָן, siman; "a sign"), devices based on the principle that the mind is able to recall relatively unfamiliar ideas by connecting, as some artificial whole, parts of them which are mutually suggestive. Mnemonics are widely used in the Talmud – as in post-talmudic literature – but their use in the former was rendered imperative by the fact that the Talmud was originally transmitted orally, and even after it was committed to writing, both the scarcity of the texts, and the custom of teaching the text orally which prevailed in the geonic academies (Weiss, Dor, 3 (19044), 215ff.; Halevy, Dorot, 3 (1928), 227) made it necessary for mnemonic devices to be employed.

This isn't a subject I know anything about, but it seems that Net might want to twist it somehow.

Net2004 · 08-13-2013, 09:53 AM

I am not anti semitic. My posts are about chrtian double standards.

Grog · 08-13-2013, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

I am not anti semitic. My posts are about chrtian double standards.

Show me a group that never holds to double standards...

08-13-2013, 03:25 AM	#1
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	ORAL torah and written torah why do christians reject jewish oral torah?

08-13-2013, 09:53 AM	#9
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	.. I am not anti semitic. My posts are about chrtian double standards.

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08-13-2013, 04:32 AM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Christians see Jesus as the fulfillment of the torah, so oral torah would be superfluous to them. Why should they consider it?

08-13-2013, 04:49 AM	#4
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	Aren't the only Chrisians that accept the oral torah members of the weirdo sect?

08-13-2013, 08:44 AM	#6
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	So christians agree that their are inventions made up by men in the oral torah? Did the rabbis use the same mnemonic techniques for both pre written torah and oral torah? I know we dont know but christians through the holy spirit tell us that rabbis used mnemonic to preserve written torah, but they could use mnemonic to preserve lies, says the christian.

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