Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 05-19-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

...and who else should I add to the list"?

everyone else on the board that doesn't share your views? Think there would be anyone left?

semiopen · 05-20-2013, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

So you can't cite anything from archaeology about the Hyksos?
Oh, right, you never do provide evidence for anything you say.
So, someone else, what does archaeology prove about the Hyksos, or are they as much a myth as the Exodus?

I think your question is why don't we find Hyksos shit in the Sinai after they were expelled from Egypt.

It's not clear that they actually left Egypt, and its not that clear that they actually invaded.

The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology And The Myth Of Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

During the late nineteenth and twentieth century CE, many historians and Bible scholars have tried to harmonize these accounts., much as Josephus tried to do, by linking them with the Bible's stories of the patriarchs and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. All but a few modern scholars have accepted the conclusion uncritically that the Hyksos were originally Palestinians who conquered Egypt and, after nearly two centuries rule there, were expelled much as is recounted in the Egyptian texts cited above. Hardly any have chosen to question the historicity of Theban propaganda about the Hyksos' 'expulsion from Egypt'. Some have even argued that the biblical patriarchs Joseph and Jacob were Hyksos kings! Although none follow Josephus' efforts to link the expulsion of the 'Hyksos' with the founding of Judea and Jerusalem, or with the Assyrians, many have tried to associate these fictions closely to the story of Moses in the Book of Exodus.

Quote:

Early Egyptian references to the Hyksos, beginning already in the seventeenth dynasty, refer to rulers who were indigenous to the Delta. They did not come from Palestine. By the end of the eighteenth century, they extended their political hegemony to Thebes. By the sixteenth century, they are allied with the rulers of southern Egypt, and possibly may have had ambitions of dividing central Egypt with the 'Nubians'. The so-called 'expulsion of the Hyksos' was a political reassertion of traditional Theban patronage over the Delta's rulers. Neither political propaganda nor the language of racist exclusion are modern inventions. The famous inscription of Meri-Ka Re, dated to the late third millennium BCE, already raises the self-pitying complaint of the Egyptian, that is, Theban, aristocrat: 'Asiatics are becoming people everywhere!' Palestine never conquered Egypt.

The most probable cause of not finding Hyksos shit in the desert is that there was no invasion or expulsion as Thompson suggests.

This is a higher quality myth than the Exodus since it is actually based on history, but it's pretty feeble to draw anti-archaeological conclusions about it.

Duvduv · 05-20-2013, 07:38 AM

There is this need for archaelogical evidence for the Exodus (the subject of this thread), but how about:
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of the entire Samaritan sect from Nablus to Rome to Egypt?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Marcion, Marcionites, Valentinians and the rest of them?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of all those Karaite communities in Persia and Iraq?
- Archaeological evidence for the travels of the Jews who are said to have been the ancestors of the Ethiopian Falashas?
- Archaeological evidence for the mass suicide at Masada?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Josephus?
- Archaeological evidence for all the alleged early Christian communities in Palestine?
- Archaeological evidence for those Christian communities allegedly existing in the 2nd century according to writings under the name of Justin Martyr?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

So you can't cite anything from archaeology about the Hyksos?
Oh, right, you never do provide evidence for anything you say.
So, someone else, what does archaeology prove about the Hyksos, or are they as much a myth as the Exodus?

steve_bnk · 05-20-2013, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is this need for archaelogical evidence for the Exodus (the subject of this thread), but how about:
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of the entire Samaritan sect from Nablus to Rome to Egypt?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Marcion, Marcionites, Valentinians and the rest of them?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of all those Karaite communities in Persia and Iraq?
- Archaeological evidence for the travels of the Jews who are said to have been the ancestors of the Ethiopian Falashas?
- Archaeological evidence for the mass suicide at Masada?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Josephus?
- Archaeological evidence for all the alleged early Christian communities in Palestine?
- Archaeological evidence for those Christian communities allegedly existing in the 2nd century according to writings under the name of Justin Martyr?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

So you can't cite anything from archaeology about the Hyksos?
Oh, right, you never do provide evidence for anything you say.
So, someone else, what does archaeology prove about the Hyksos, or are they as much a myth as the Exodus?

History is what it is with the available evidence. True historians look at the evidence and try to synthesize a plausible history. They may disagree on conclusions.

Christian historians start from an assumed true premise and try to prove it.

The lack of overwhelming evidence reduces the theological and secular iossues to a lot of circumstantial speculations. The reason why this forum goes on and and on, and why Christianity remains a lively topic.

We can say based on science the global flood did not occur, the Earth is older than 6500 years, and the odds of exodus in the bible not leaving any evidence are small.

Actually I believe there is evidence at Masada but I'd have to look it up.

Note there is no archeological evidenced and corroborating records' from the tme Buddha is said to have lived.

Cheerful Charlie · 05-20-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

As of now there is ZERO Hyksos tie to Israelites.

My question is about the HYKSOS themselves. What archaeological evidence do we have for them? History books tell about them, are they in error?

We have a fair amount. The cities they built in those parts of Egypt they controlled have been excavated. We have material from that era, for example, a papyrus from an Egyptian ship captain tells us of the last campaigns against the Hyksos by the Egyptians.
The Hyksos were great traders and traces of their interactions with trading partners tells us yes, they did in fact exist. They were in no way merely mythological.

Cheerful Charlie

Duvduv · 05-20-2013, 10:48 AM

As I stated, this thread deals with archaeology. I was pointing out the fact that historians take so much for granted without the slightest SHRED OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL evidence, don't they? I am not discussing various types of corroborative DOCUMENTARY evidence. That's a different thread.
Please reread my last posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is this need for archaelogical evidence for the Exodus (the subject of this thread), but how about:
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of the entire Samaritan sect from Nablus to Rome to Egypt?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Marcion, Marcionites, Valentinians and the rest of them?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of all those Karaite communities in Persia and Iraq?
- Archaeological evidence for the travels of the Jews who are said to have been the ancestors of the Ethiopian Falashas?
- Archaeological evidence for the mass suicide at Masada?
- Archaeological evidence for the existence of Josephus?
- Archaeological evidence for all the alleged early Christian communities in Palestine?
- Archaeological evidence for those Christian communities allegedly existing in the 2nd century according to writings under the name of Justin Martyr?

History is what it is with the available evidence. True historians look at the evidence and try to synthesize a plausible history. They may disagree on conclusions.

Christian historians start from an assumed true premise and try to prove it.

The lack of overwhelming evidence reduces the theological and secular iossues to a lot of circumstantial speculations. The reason why this forum goes on and and on, and why Christianity remains a lively topic.

We can say based on science the global flood did not occur, the Earth is older than 6500 years, and the odds of exodus in the bible not leaving any evidence are small.

Actually I believe there is evidence at Masada but I'd have to look it up.

Note there is no archeological evidenced and corroborating records' from the tme Buddha is said to have lived.

Cheerful Charlie · 05-20-2013, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

They did not wander for 40 years, they camped out at Kadesh Barnea for decades.

Cheerful Charlie

You mean they fictionally camped out for decades?

Yup. There have been now two major archaeological investigations at Kadesh Barnea by the Israelis and they found nothing at all.

Over 38 years we would expect middens, hearth and ash pits, animal bones, broken pottery and more in vast profusion, even if you cut the biblical numbers down to 10%.
Nnone of it existed as it must exist if the Bible is true. And its not a matter of missing a few rare artifacts as an excuse. This has lead sober archaeologists and historians to reject the Bible here totally. And that is that.

Cheerful Charlie

semiopen · 05-20-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

- Archaeological evidence for the mass suicide at Masada?

Actually I believe there is evidence at Masada but I'd have to look it up.

Masada

Not a very good article, as it is biased toward the underdogs but

Quote:

According to Dan Gill,[3] geological investigations in the early 1990s confirmed earlier observations that the 375-foot (114 m) high assault ramp consisted mostly of a natural spur of bedrock. The ramp was complete in the spring of 73, after probably two to three months of siege, allowing the Romans to finally breach the wall of the fortress with a battering ram on April 16.[4]

They completed the ramp in the spring and breached the wall of the fortress on April 16 (after two or three months of fighting). Last I looked, April is in early spring. Most likely the Romans completed the ramp and that was the story, probably no resistance.

There are no obvious/probable Jews among the bodies recovered.

Personally, I think we can believe the contemporary reports of the mass suicide, the defenders had to be good at killing someone so it might as well have been themselves.

steve_bnk · 05-20-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As I stated, this thread deals with archaeology. I was pointing out the fact that historians take so much for granted without the slightest SHRED OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL evidence, don't they? I am not discussing various types of corroborative DOCUMENTARY evidence. That's a different thread.
Please reread my last posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

History is what it is with the available evidence. True historians look at the evidence and try to synthesize a plausible history. They may disagree on conclusions.

Christian historians start from an assumed true premise and try to prove it.

The lack of overwhelming evidence reduces the theological and secular iossues to a lot of circumstantial speculations. The reason why this forum goes on and and on, and why Christianity remains a lively topic.

We can say based on science the global flood did not occur, the Earth is older than 6500 years, and the odds of exodus in the bible not leaving any evidence are small.

Actually I believe there is evidence at Masada but I'd have to look it up.

Note there is no archeological evidenced and corroborating records' from the tme Buddha is said to have lived.

Fair enough.

Based on archeological evidence, do you think the Exodus occurred as depicted in the Old Testament?

Duvduv · 05-20-2013, 11:14 AM

I am one of those people who is not impressed by the clamoring to corroborate "Josephus" for whom there is no archaeological evidence for his existence either.

And where is the archaeological evidence for the Muslim conquest of North Africa in the 7th or 8th century?! Where is the archaeological evidence for the battles between Muhammad and the pagans, or of the early Muslim settlements as far as Damascus and Baghdad not long after the alleged death of Muhammed in 635?
For that matter WHERE is the archaeological evidence for any SHIA communities anywhere before the advent of the Safavid Empire??

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05-20-2013, 11:14 AM	#80
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I am one of those people who is not impressed by the clamoring to corroborate "Josephus" for whom there is no archaeological evidence for his existence either. And where is the archaeological evidence for the Muslim conquest of North Africa in the 7th or 8th century?! Where is the archaeological evidence for the battles between Muhammad and the pagans, or of the early Muslim settlements as far as Damascus and Baghdad not long after the alleged death of Muhammed in 635? For that matter WHERE is the archaeological evidence for any SHIA communities anywhere before the advent of the Safavid Empire??

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