Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-06-2013, 07:40 AM

It is already known that the illiterate can own businesses. It is the Canon of the Jesus cult which states or implies that Jesus and the disciples were illiterate and were known to be so by the Jews..

John 7:15 KJV

Quote:

And the Jews marvelled , saying , How knoweth this man letters, having never learned ?

Acts 4:13 KJV

Quote:

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled ; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The Canon of the Jesus cult gives the false impression that the illiterate can suddenly become literate by miracle if they are filled with the Holy Ghost or the Son of God like Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

I did not claim that acts et al were necessarily true, nor authoritative. Just that that Peter and John fit the mold of illiterate peasants (fishermen)

Leaving aside the question of whether ἀγράμματοι means illiterate rather that "not formally educated", let alone, as Moulton and Milligan (The Vocabulary of the Greek NT Illustrated from the Papyri and other Non-Literary Sources 1914-30) note, "lacking in expertise concerning the law" or as R. Pervo translates it "“uneducated amateur" [more below from Barrett], "Peasants" is a term associated with land workers, isn't it? Did not James and John own and operate fishing businesses? Does that not indicate that they would have to be able to read -- at least to tally stock and sales? Was not Zebedee, John's father, sufficiently wealthy to have hired men? Does that -- and the fact that they were not land workers -- indicate that they fit the mold of illiterate peasants?

Jeffrey

Quote:

The Council, observing (present participle) their boldness took note (καταλαβόμενοι, aorist participle) of the fact that they were ἀγράμματοι and ἰδιῶται. In ordinary Greek use, ἀγράμματος means illiterate. Xenophon, Memorabilia 4:2:20, cited by LS 14, provides a good example: οὐκοῦν ὁ μὲν ἑκὼν μὴ ὀρθῶς γράφων γραμματικὸς ἂν εἴῃ ἂκων ἀγράμματος; Cf. Plutarch, Apophth. Reg. 186A, the man who voted for the ostracism of Aristides was ἄνθρωπος ἀγράμματος καὶ ἄγροικος. The opposite of ἀγράμματος is (in classical usage) γραμματικός. ἰδιώτης is in the first instance the private man who as such stands over against the state (the res publica); hence the plebeian; hence the unskilled person who stands over against the expert in any art, the layman (over against, e.g., the doctor). Cf. e.g. Thucydides 2:48:2; Plato, Laws 830a, where it is clear that the ἰδιώτης is not in a general sense an ignorant person but one who in a particular field is not a professional. It needs further development to reach the ignoramus. None of the meanings cited is entirely suitable to the present context. Bengel’s ‘’Αγράμματος est rudis, ἰδιώτης rudior’ is neat but not satisfactory. For ἀγράμματος, the opposite word would be not the γραμματικός but (in NT usage) the γραμματεύς: hence, a man without scribal training in the law. The ἰδιώτης would not be greatly different: one who did not practise in the court—to lawyers, a layman. The pair of words suggest composition in Greek. The word ἰδιώτης was borrowed into Hebrew as הדיוט. It means an unskilled workman; see e.g. Sanhedrin 10:2; Moed Katan 1:8 (He that is not skilled (the הדיוט) may sew after his usual fashion, but the craftsman may make only irregular stitches). Dodd (The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, 1953, p. 82) renders the whole phrase in Hebrew as בור והדיוט, but בור (‘uncultivated, an uncultured person, mannerless, ruffian’, Jastrow 148b) is not really an equivalent of ἀγράμματος. See e.g. Aboth 2:6. Peter and John were laymen, conducting their own defence. Plümacher (22) notes a contrast between this verse and 4:19; 5:29, which recall Socrates; but Socrates in his defence hardly represented himself as a professional lawyer. Peter and John were laymen, yet they spoke with παρρησία (as, we may note, Socrates had done). And the lawyers were surprised, ἐθαύμαζον.

Bengel Bengel, J. A. Gnomon Novi Testamenti, Editio Tertia, London, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Oxford, 1862. Acts, pp. 388–489.

Jastrow M. Jastrow, Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature, New York, Berlin, London, 1926.

Barrett, C. K. (2004). A critical and exegetical commentary on the Acts of the Apostles; The Acts of the Apostles (233). 2 v.: T&T Clark

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-06-2013, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

For the average person in the region how expensive would writing materials be?

Synagogues as I understand it would have one copy of scripture.

I doubt a lot of Jewish homes would have had personal copies of the OT.

Scriptures would be read and perhaps memorized at the synagogues.

That, i.e. scripture study, is indeed what went on at the council gathering place -- which as Richard Horsely (in his Galilee) and Lee Levine ("The Second Temple Synagogue: The Formative Years," in The Synagogue in Late Antiquity, ed. L. I. Levine [Philadelphia: American Schools of Oriental Research and Jewish Theological Seminary of America, 1987]19–20: idem, The Ancient Synagogue: The First Thousand Years [Yale University Press, 2000] have shown Synagogues were -- on the Sabbath in the first century CE. It was not a place of formalized prayer, let alone a building purpose built solely for worship until well into the 2nd century, but a place of study.

As I have noted elsewhere"

Quote:

... no extant first century source, including the New Testament, that speaks of, lists, or describes the religious activities engaged in in first century Judean and Galilean synagogues, including those referred to as prosuxh, ever speaks of, lists, or describes community prayer as one of them. On the contrary, what is indicated by our sources is that the only formal, regular religious activity that took place there was a ceremony centering in Torah reading and instruction. This is illustrated first of all by the texts from Philo and Josephus which not only describe prosuxai (“houses of prayer)” as essentially “schools of wisdom, and courage, and temperance, and justice, and piety, and holiness, and every virtue, by which human and divine things are appreciated, and placed upon a proper footing” (Philo, Moses 2.216), but which note

• how Jews meet together in their houses of prayer and synagogues to “receive as a body training in their ancestral philosophy” and “to listen to the Law and to obtain a thorough and accurate knowledge of it” and, while sitting “together in a respectful and orderly manner, hear the laws read so that none should be ignorant of them”, as well as

• how “pagans” are surprised that “If an invasion of enemies were to come upon you on a sudden, or the violence of a deluge, from the river having broken down all its barriers by an inundation, or any terrible fire, or a thunderbolt, or famine, or pestilence, or an earthquake, or any other evil, whether caused by men or inflicted by God,” Jews would “still sit down in [their] synagogues, collecting [their] ordinary assemblies, and reading [their] sacred volumes in security, and explaining whatever is not quite clear, and devoting all [their] time and leisure with long discussions to the philosophy of [their] ancestors”;

That the only regular religious activity that took place in Palestinian synagogues was Torah reading and instruction is also made known by

• the famous Theodotos Inscription which describes the purpose of the synagogue that Theodotos (a son, grandson, and great grandson of archisynagogoi) built was “for the reading of Torah and for teaching the commandments”

and, most importantly, by

• the very New Testament texts, i.e. Luke 4:16 and Mk. 6:1-2, that scholars have appealed to in support of their claim that there was a synagogue in Nazareth in Jesus’ day.

This is not to say that people did not pray in the Synagogue. Josephus’ note in his Life that while he was waiting in the synagogue in Tiberius for a morning meeting about the course of the Revolt to begin (295), he fulfilled “the requirements concerning prayer” shows that they – or at least he – did. But as Ed Sanders has observed, this hardly constitutes evidence that all -- or, for that matter, anyone, including Josephus -- who gathered in the synagogue regularly engaged in prayer, let alone in praying precisely the same prayer and in unison. For as he notes, our evidence is wholly against “congregational prayer in unison”.

In any case, the question of how expensive it might or might not have been to produce books is surely a separate question from whether Jesus knew how to read and how literate Galilean society was, isn't it?

I'm not sure why you are raising it.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-06-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is already known that the illiterate can own businesses.

It is? Could you provide some sources that this was the case in first century Galilee?

Quote:

It is the Canon of the Jesus cult which states or implies that Jesus and the disciples were illiterate and were known to be so by the Jews..

John 7:15 KJV

Quote:

And the Jews marvelled , saying , How knoweth this man letters, having never learned ?

Acts 4:13 KJV

Quote:

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled ; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The Canon of the Jesus cult gives the false impression that the illiterate can suddenly become literate by miracle if they are filled with the Holy Ghost or the Son of God like Jesus.

I thought it was a rule here that exegesis and claims about the meaning of Greek texts is not to be done on the basis of English translations of them.

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 06-06-2013, 08:25 AM

The "Infancy Gospel of Thomas" claims or implies that when Jesus was a Child he was already litterate even before he was taught letters.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...a-roberts.html

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Quote:

6. And a certain teacher, Zacchaeus by name, was standing in a certain place, and heard Jesus thus speaking to his father; and he wondered exceedingly, that, being a child, he should speak in such a way.

And a few days thereafter he came to Joseph, and said to him: Thou hast a sensible child, and he has some mind. Give him to me, then, that he may learn letters; and I shall teach him along with the letters all knowledge, both how to address all the elders, and to honour them as forefathers and fathers, and how to love those of his own age.

And He said to him all the letters from the Alpha even to the Omega, clearly and with great exactness. And He looked upon the teacher Zacchaeus, and said to him: Thou who art ignorant of the nature of the Alpha, how canst thou teach others the Beta? Thou hypocrite! first, if thou knowest. teach the A, and then we shall believe thee about the B. Then He began to question the teacher about the first letter, and he was not able to answer Him.

And in the hearing of many, the child says to Zacchaeus: Hear, O teacher, the order of the first letter, and notice here how it has lines, and a middle stroke crossing those which thou seest common; (lines) brought together; the highest part supporting them, and again bringing them under one head; with three points of intersection; of the same kind; principal and subordinate; of equal length. Thou hast the lines of the A.7

7. And when the teacher Zacchaeus heard the child speaking such and so great allegories of the first letter, he was at a great loss about such a narrative, and about His teaching. And He said to those that were present: Alas! I, wretch that I am, am at a loss, bringing shame upon myself by having dragged this child hither. Take him away, then, I beseech thee, brother Joseph. I cannot endure the sternness of his look; I cannot make out his meaning at all. That child does not belong to this earth; he can tame even fire....

Based on these stories, Jesus was born literate and did not belong on earth.

stephan huller · 06-06-2013, 09:03 AM

That story wasn't limited to the infancy gospels (cf Irenaeus AH 1.20; the Epistle of the Apostles). But so what?

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-06-2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The "Infancy Gospel of Thomas" claims or implies that when Jesus was a Child he was already litterate even before he was taught letters.

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...a-roberts.html

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Quote:

6. And a certain teacher, Zacchaeus by name, was standing in a certain place, and heard Jesus thus speaking to his father; and he wondered exceedingly, that, being a child, he should speak in such a way.

And a few days thereafter he came to Joseph, and said to him: Thou hast a sensible child, and he has some mind. Give him to me, then, that he may learn letters; and I shall teach him along with the letters all knowledge, both how to address all the elders, and to honour them as forefathers and fathers, and how to love those of his own age.

And He said to him all the letters from the Alpha even to the Omega, clearly and with great exactness. And He looked upon the teacher Zacchaeus, and said to him: Thou who art ignorant of the nature of the Alpha, how canst thou teach others the Beta? Thou hypocrite! first, if thou knowest. teach the A, and then we shall believe thee about the B. Then He began to question the teacher about the first letter, and he was not able to answer Him.

And in the hearing of many, the child says to Zacchaeus: Hear, O teacher, the order of the first letter, and notice here how it has lines, and a middle stroke crossing those which thou seest common; (lines) brought together; the highest part supporting them, and again bringing them under one head; with three points of intersection; of the same kind; principal and subordinate; of equal length. Thou hast the lines of the A.7

7. And when the teacher Zacchaeus heard the child speaking such and so great allegories of the first letter, he was at a great loss about such a narrative, and about His teaching. And He said to those that were present: Alas! I, wretch that I am, am at a loss, bringing shame upon myself by having dragged this child hither. Take him away, then, I beseech thee, brother Joseph. I cannot endure the sternness of his look; I cannot make out his meaning at all. That child does not belong to this earth; he can tame even fire....

Based on these stories, Jesus was born literate and did not belong on earth.

What is the Greek that underlies Thou hast a sensible child and That child does not belong to this earth?

Is the latter an idiom?

Jeffrey

outhouse · 06-06-2013, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

For the average person in the region how expensive would writing materials be?

Synagogues as I understand it would have one copy of scripture.

I doubt a lot of Jewish homes would have had personal copies of the OT.

Scriptures would be read and perhaps memorized at the synagogues.

That, i.e. scripture study, is indeed what went on at the council gathering place -- which as Richard Horsely (in his Galilee) and Lee Levine ("The Second Temple Synagogue: The Formative Years," in The Synagogue in Late Antiquity, ed. L. I. Levine [Philadelphia: American Schools of Oriental Research and Jewish Theological Seminary of America, 1987]19–20: idem, The Ancient Synagogue: The First Thousand Years [Yale University Press, 2000] have shown Synagogues were -- on the Sabbath in the first century CE. It was not a place of formalized prayer, let alone a building purpose built solely for worship until well into the 2nd century, but a place of study.

As I have noted elsewhere"

Quote:

... no extant first century source, including the New Testament, that speaks of, lists, or describes the religious activities engaged in in first century Judean and Galilean synagogues, including those referred to as prosuxh, ever speaks of, lists, or describes community prayer as one of them. On the contrary, what is indicated by our sources is that the only formal, regular religious activity that took place there was a ceremony centering in Torah reading and instruction. This is illustrated first of all by the texts from Philo and Josephus which not only describe prosuxai (“houses of prayer)” as essentially “schools of wisdom, and courage, and temperance, and justice, and piety, and holiness, and every virtue, by which human and divine things are appreciated, and placed upon a proper footing” (Philo, Moses 2.216), but which note

• how Jews meet together in their houses of prayer and synagogues to “receive as a body training in their ancestral philosophy” and “to listen to the Law and to obtain a thorough and accurate knowledge of it” and, while sitting “together in a respectful and orderly manner, hear the laws read so that none should be ignorant of them”, as well as

• how “pagans” are surprised that “If an invasion of enemies were to come upon you on a sudden, or the violence of a deluge, from the river having broken down all its barriers by an inundation, or any terrible fire, or a thunderbolt, or famine, or pestilence, or an earthquake, or any other evil, whether caused by men or inflicted by God,” Jews would “still sit down in [their] synagogues, collecting [their] ordinary assemblies, and reading [their] sacred volumes in security, and explaining whatever is not quite clear, and devoting all [their] time and leisure with long discussions to the philosophy of [their] ancestors”;

That the only regular religious activity that took place in Palestinian synagogues was Torah reading and instruction is also made known by

• the famous Theodotos Inscription which describes the purpose of the synagogue that Theodotos (a son, grandson, and great grandson of archisynagogoi) built was “for the reading of Torah and for teaching the commandments”

and, most importantly, by

• the very New Testament texts, i.e. Luke 4:16 and Mk. 6:1-2, that scholars have appealed to in support of their claim that there was a synagogue in Nazareth in Jesus’ day.

This is not to say that people did not pray in the Synagogue. Josephus’ note in his Life that while he was waiting in the synagogue in Tiberius for a morning meeting about the course of the Revolt to begin (295), he fulfilled “the requirements concerning prayer” shows that they – or at least he – did. But as Ed Sanders has observed, this hardly constitutes evidence that all -- or, for that matter, anyone, including Josephus -- who gathered in the synagogue regularly engaged in prayer, let alone in praying precisely the same prayer and in unison. For as he notes, our evidence is wholly against “congregational prayer in unison”.

In any case, the question of how expensive it might or might not have been to produce books is surely a separate question from whether Jesus knew how to read and how literate Galilean society was, isn't it?

I'm not sure why you are raising it.

Jeffrey

Ive heard second temple Judaism learning to read and write was of high importance for Jews.

I just wonder if the evidence is based on unique geographic locations, and which sect in Judaism did this evidence come from.

Im sure Zealots, Eseenes, Pharisees and Sadducees all had different attitudes towards teaching this skill. Every thing ive read makes a blanket statement, and I dont buy it.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-06-2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Im sure Zealots, Eseenes, Pharisees and Sadducees all had different attitudes towards teaching this skill. Every thing ive read makes a blanket statement, and I dont buy it.

And just what, exactly, have you read? Where precisely may these "blanket statements" be found?

Jeffrey

Sarpedon · 06-06-2013, 09:32 AM

I find this very interesting. Was the modern Jewish literacy as rite of passage Bar Mitzvah thing invented post diaspora?

outhouse · 06-06-2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Im sure Zealots, Eseenes, Pharisees and Sadducees all had different attitudes towards teaching this skill. Every thing ive read makes a blanket statement, and I dont buy it.

And just what, exactly, have you read? Where precisely may these "blanket statements" be found?

Jeffrey

I like Crossan and Reed on this aspect.

Blanket

Talmud, even though its not old enouh.
James D G Dunn
Josephus

Of course this all comes from Wiki on historical Jesus.

Theres two sides to every coin, what do you have

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06-06-2013, 09:03 AM	#35
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That story wasn't limited to the infancy gospels (cf Irenaeus AH 1.20; the Epistle of the Apostles). But so what?

06-06-2013, 09:32 AM	#39
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	I find this very interesting. Was the modern Jewish literacy as rite of passage Bar Mitzvah thing invented post diaspora?

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