Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stuart · 08-31-2013, 06:12 PM

The biggest problem we have with pre-exhilic Israel and Judea is that coins did not yet exist, or rather only started existing in Persia. So numismatics which are used to help correlate dates to archeological sites are useless. Also coins were (and are) important markers of achievement and propaganda which help verify or refute written texts. As a result it is extremely hard to place dates on anything prior to 600 BC.

Just read vridar on this. Yikes, there is zero evidence of Josiah reforms. You have to wonder if that isn't later.

Minimalist · 09-01-2013, 06:58 PM

True about the coins but archaeology has other methods.

http://www.jhsonline.org/cocoon/JHS/a122.html

Quote:

On the one hand, Zwickel (2008: 216–217), mainly on the basis of the descriptions and lists in Nehemiah, estimated that the population of the city before the days of Nehemiah was about 200 people and afterwards about 400 or 600 people.4 Finkelstein (2008: 501–507), on the other hand, expressed a similar view, though rooted in the archaeological data. According to Finkelstein, only some parts of the Southeastern Hill of Jerusalem were populated in this period, leading him to conclude that the settled area consisted of c. 20–25 dunam. According to his calculations, the population in the city during Nehemiah’s period was about 400 people, including women and children (i.e., about 100 men).

This paper, by Oded Lipschits, actually disagrees with Finkelstein and Zwickel and calls for a total population of perhaps 1,000 people in Persian "Jerusalem." In the grand sweep of things, the difference is hardly worth arguing about. The place was a miniscule little rat hole in either case. That makes the OT tales nothing but a later aggrandisement of history.

semiopen · 09-02-2013, 07:09 AM

There was the famous joke with the coins from Joseph.

For example, from the twits at Arutz Sheva

Top Egyptian Daily: Joseph’s Era Coins Found in Egypt

Ironically, religious people bit at this - although I'm sure Duvi wasn't fooled.

Coins remain sort of anachronistic in the bible. I don't think the sages knew that they weren't talking about actual coins.

Minimalist · 09-02-2013, 12:11 PM

Thanks for the memories of that one, Semi.

Perhaps many have heard of the exploits of Dr. Gabriel Barkay? When the Palestinian Waqf began some construction on the temple mount they dumped the tons of dirt which they excavated at a landfill. Barkay arranged an army of volunteers to sift through the dirt bucket by bucket and has recovered many thousands of artifacts. We have no archaeological context for them but the artifacts themselves are still important. He has found thousands of coins in the fill but nothing prior to tiny Persian silver coins of the 4th century according to his website.

Duvduv · 09-02-2013, 02:28 PM

Has anyone ever wondered what happened to the hundreds of millions of dead bodies buried worldwide, whose graves don't exist, and for whom not a trace exists (and I am not only talking about Hammurabi, Socrates or Plato.......)??
Heck, in Canaan there would have been hundreds of thousands of graves of dead Canaanites, and yet nothing remains of them, their kings, their buildings, nothing. Not in Jericho, not anywhere. Yet it is assumed that they were ALL there.......

Minimalist · 09-02-2013, 05:39 PM

Ever heard the phrase "ashes to ashes - dust to dust?"

Wrap a body in a shroud and plant it in the ground and there won't be much left in 250 years, let alone 2,500.

Duvduv · 09-03-2013, 04:03 AM

There will be bones, skulls and teeth.
Billions of them. But just likethere aren't any of Israelites, there aren't any of Canaanites. So who knows who populated Canaan based on physical evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Ever heard the phrase "ashes to ashes - dust to dust?"

Wrap a body in a shroud and plant it in the ground and there won't be much left in 250 years, let alone 2,500.

semiopen · 09-03-2013, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There will be bones, skulls and teeth.
Billions of them. But just likethere aren't any of Israelites, there aren't any of Canaanites. So who knows who populated Canaan based on physical evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Ever heard the phrase "ashes to ashes - dust to dust?"

Wrap a body in a shroud and plant it in the ground and there won't be much left in 250 years, let alone 2,500.

I have to confess to just not understanding physical resurrection.

My Rabbi goes on about the bone in the neck that doesn't decay...

Resurrection of the Dead.

Quote:

Cremation/Resurrection: Jewish tradition records that with burial, a single bone in the back of the neck never decays. It is from this bone -- called the luz bone -- that the human body will be rebuilt in the future Messianic Era when all the dead will be resurrected. With cremation, that bone can be destroyed, and the resurrection process stymied.

In fact, someone who chooses cremation is as if he does not believe in resurrection. This is a fundamental of Judaism, as expressed in Maimonides' classical "13 Principles of Faith": "I believe with complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead, whenever the wish emanates from the Creator."

We've discussed the 13 Principles here before. There a few of them that I sort of agree with.

THE RAMBAM'S THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES OF JEWISH FAITH

Anyway, we are discussing the

Luz_(bone) and Duvi is correctly asking why we don't find these.

Quote:

Luz (Hebrew: 'לוז') is the name of a small bone in the human body, at the top of the spinal column (the seventh cervical vertebra) or at the base of the spinal column (the coccyx), according to different traditions. Muslims and Jews believe that this is the bone from which the body will be rebuilt at the time of resurrection, and share the belief that this bone does not decay.[1] Arabic books refer to this bone as "'ajbu adh-dhanab" --(عَجْبُ الذَّنَب).

There is an aggadah (legend) in the midrash that the Roman Emperor Hadrian asked how man would be revived in the world to come, and Rabbi Joshua Ben Hananiah replied that it would be "From Luz, in the back-bone." "Prove this to me," said Hadrian. Then the Rabbi took Luz, a small bone of the spine, and immersed it in water, but it was not softened; he put it into the fire, but it was not consumed; he put it into a mill, but it could not be pounded; he placed it upon an anvil and struck it with a hammer, but the anvil split and the hammer was broken. (Ecclesiastes Rabbah xii / Genesis Rabbah xviii).

So far as I know there have been no further scientific experiments on this bone.

Steve Weiss · 09-03-2013, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Here is an article from July 10th, 2013, entitled "Oldest Alphabetical Written Text Found Near Temple Mount"

It basically states that writing from the Tenth Century B.C.E. Jerusalem was found by the University of Jerusalem archaeologist Dr. Eilat Mazar.

This writing is not Hebrew writing. The earliest Hebrew writing found comes from about 725 B.C.E. This writing is 250 years earlier, circa 975 B.C.E.

The archaeologist suggested that the writing was "by one of the non-Israeli residents of Jerusalem, perhaps Jebusites, who were part of the city population in the time of Kings David and Solomon."

This explanation is problematical for several reasons. Jerusalem was a small city of 1,000-2,000 people at this time. Writing requires a certain infrastructure. You need teachers, schools and scribes for a society to develop writing. With such a small population, it is hard to believe that two different groups developed their own alphabets and writing culture in such a small place. If Hebrew writing existed in Jerusalem at this time and Hebrews were dominant in the society why has no Hebrew writing been preserved or found on any monuments or potsherds. How did the writing of this non-Hebrew culture manage to survive and Hebrew writing fail to survive?

We should remember that cities in those days were not the transient multicultural places they are today. Walls were erected to keep foreigners out. You were born in a city, you knew everyone in the city and you dedicated yourself to protecting fellow citizens.

The logical evidence from this non-hebrew writing is that another non-hebrew culture thrived in and ruled Jerusalem at this period of time. The earliest Hebrew writing from 725 B.C.E. suggests that Hebrews did not become dominant until this period of time.

This seems to me to be the strongest evidence yet to reject the idea of a Hebrew dominated region in the 10th century B.C.E.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and Jesus have one thing in common. They are all fictional characters in a work of fiction. The burden of proof for their alleged existence is far too demanding for any of these mythological personages to be taken seriously.

Jaybees · 09-03-2013, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and Jesus have one thing in common. They are all fictional characters in a work of fiction. The burden of proof for their alleged existence is far too demanding for any of these mythological personages to be taken seriously.

The tragedy is that the goat-herders in the "holy" land learned to write and managed to pass these weird fantasies along to later generations.

But, then, if it hadn't been them it would have been the fans of Gilgamesh, Ahura Mazda, Baal or one of the other fabulous figures from this Cradle of Human Civilization who would currently be afflicting the modern world.

Human kind is doomed to continued self-flagellation.

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08-31-2013, 06:12 PM	#61
Stuart Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: California Posts: 39	The biggest problem we have with pre-exhilic Israel and Judea is that coins did not yet exist, or rather only started existing in Persia. So numismatics which are used to help correlate dates to archeological sites are useless. Also coins were (and are) important markers of achievement and propaganda which help verify or refute written texts. As a result it is extremely hard to place dates on anything prior to 600 BC. Just read vridar on this. Yikes, there is zero evidence of Josiah reforms. You have to wonder if that isn't later.

09-02-2013, 07:09 AM	#63
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	There was the famous joke with the coins from Joseph. For example, from the twits at Arutz Sheva Top Egyptian Daily: Joseph’s Era Coins Found in Egypt Ironically, religious people bit at this - although I'm sure Duvi wasn't fooled. Coins remain sort of anachronistic in the bible. I don't think the sages knew that they weren't talking about actual coins.

09-02-2013, 12:11 PM	#64
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Thanks for the memories of that one, Semi. Perhaps many have heard of the exploits of Dr. Gabriel Barkay? When the Palestinian Waqf began some construction on the temple mount they dumped the tons of dirt which they excavated at a landfill. Barkay arranged an army of volunteers to sift through the dirt bucket by bucket and has recovered many thousands of artifacts. We have no archaeological context for them but the artifacts themselves are still important. He has found thousands of coins in the fill but nothing prior to tiny Persian silver coins of the 4th century according to his website.

09-02-2013, 02:28 PM	#65
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Has anyone ever wondered what happened to the hundreds of millions of dead bodies buried worldwide, whose graves don't exist, and for whom not a trace exists (and I am not only talking about Hammurabi, Socrates or Plato.......)?? Heck, in Canaan there would have been hundreds of thousands of graves of dead Canaanites, and yet nothing remains of them, their kings, their buildings, nothing. Not in Jericho, not anywhere. Yet it is assumed that they were ALL there.......

09-02-2013, 05:39 PM	#66
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Ever heard the phrase "ashes to ashes - dust to dust?" Wrap a body in a shroud and plant it in the ground and there won't be much left in 250 years, let alone 2,500.

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