Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 06-17-2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I personally have pointed to the possibility that the christian religion may have started with Paul. Working from a tentative reading of Paul's literature, especially Galatians, that Paul did not get his knowledge of the Jesus messiah from other people, claiming his gospel came from revelation..

I personally see this scripture as being taken out of context to the whole picture.

Paul wanted to be a real apostle, that much is obvious from his writings. The only way he could do this is to be sent forth by the Christ.

Not only that if we follow what Paul tells us, he states he had a feeling from within, a change of heart so to speak.

One can learn from people you were murdering, or from oral tradition while on the hunt. One cannot be sent forth picking up knowledge here and there about a movement.

On a last note, dreams and visions were taken pretty seriously by these primitive people, in Paul's case, fiction is probably the best explanation.

J-D · 06-17-2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

I just skimmed the thread, so I apologize if this has already been posted.

In 70 AD, the Second Temple was destroyed (along with much of Jerusalem), and the vast majority of the Jews were driven from Israel. Suddenly there was a vacuum of sorts in Judaism - without the Temple, how could the Jews follow the Law, which requires regular Temple sacrifices? With no Temple, what did YHWH require of them now - and why would he allow the Temple to be destroyed?

There were a number of attempts to answer this question. The two that survived are these: Messiah already came and sacrificed himself on our behalf, thus bringing an end to the need for Temple sacrifices (Christianity), or - alternately - YHWH has decreed that the Jews shall sacrifice metaphorically, by devoting themselves to study of the Torah and to doing good deeds (Judaism). Since these two surviving branches of OT Judaism were at odds with each-other, they engaged in a theological struggle.

Jewish Christianity was seriously diverging from OT Judaism by saying that YHWH had put an end to Temple sacrifice via a single human sacrifice. This idea is anathema to any OT adherent. Add to this the fact that Jewish Christians decided to allow Gentiles into their cult, and it was inevitable that Christianity would cease to be a Jewish religion at all within a very short time.

I can see how Jews might have faced a question about how to proceed when the Temple is destroyed, but I don't see where you think the answer came from.

jdboy · 06-17-2013, 06:06 PM

I see no better argument than Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. It answers all the questions

aa5874 · 06-17-2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

I see no better argument than Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. It answers all the questions

What is Atwill's argument in Caesar's Messiah?

J-D · 06-17-2013, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

I can't help but wonder why Greeks or Romans would invent a religion in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th century that would be centered around a 1st century Jew.

I can't help but wonder why Greeks or Roman would invent a story about Jesus Christ and claimed he was born AFTER his mother became pregnant by a Ghost. See Matthew 1.18 and Luke 1.35.

If they wanted to make people believe Jesus was human why did they claim his father was a Holy Ghost?

It is clear that the Jesus story started without a human Jesus. Virtually every Jesus cult writer who mentioned the birth of Jesus admitted he was the Product of a Ghost.

It is clear that AFTER the supposed Words of the Lord in the Prophets was believed to have been fulfilled--the Fall of the Temple and the desolation of the Holy City that stories were fabricated claiming the Messiah had already come and was Pierced by the Jews.

Somebody did create a story about a woman being made pregnant by a holy spirit. It is an odd thing to do, but there the story is, so somebody must have created it.

jdboy · 06-17-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

I see no better argument than Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. It answers all the questions

What is Atwill's argument in Caesar's Messiah?

Atwill's argument is based on the works of Josephus. That when you look at the Jesus story as a series of prophecies you will find them fulfilled in "Wars of the Jews".

J-D · 06-17-2013, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I would imagine that the translation of the Hebrew religious texts into Greek was probably the most significant originating factor.

I don't see how translation of religious texts from one language to another would start a new religion. Religious texts are often translated from one language to another without new religions starting.

Decontextualization of religious texts is an invitation for their creative recontextualization. There are rarely truly new religions. We have christianity from Judaism and signs of other sources. Manichaeism comes from christianity. Islam from Judaism with undercurrents of christianity and local beliefs. How does messianism fit within Mosaic Judaism? You should say it doesn't. What happens when you take messianism out of its Jewish context? Decontextualization -> recontextualization. How does decontextualized messianism develop in a salvific mystery religious ethos such as was found in various parts of Cilicia, where Mithra was worshiped? I don't think it is difficult to conceive how a new religion could spring from the decontextualization of religious literature due to translation. I can't say that it is what happened, but I find your inability to see how it could a little difficult to believe.

I don't see how the translation of a religious text from one language to another could be the key to the starting of a new religion, because the translation of religious texts from one language to another is a common phenomenon but it's not commonly followed by a new religion starting. Maybe the translation of a religious text from one language to another could be a factor in a new religion starting, but it can't be the main part of the explanation.

outhouse · 06-17-2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

I can't help but wonder why Greeks or Romans would invent a religion in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th century that would be centered around a 1st century Jew.

Yes it amounts to Romans making a deity out of one of their oppressed slaves

outhouse · 06-17-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Somebody did create a story about a woman being made pregnant by a holy spirit. It is an odd thing to do, but there the story is, so somebody must have created it

Which is perfectly normal mythology in Hellenism.

Not only that we have scripture that has been layered from a original source in this case Gmark written too and for Romans.

The important fact to take away is that the different books all place a different time period for Jesus divinity.

We have Gjohn running with divine at birth

We have divinity being placed at at baptism and the other at resurrection.

This shows the difference in belief of exactly how and why and when Jesus was divine. Not all groups were saying the ghost knocked Mary up.

Toto · 06-17-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What is Atwill's argument in Caesar's Messiah?

Atwill's argument is based on the works of Josephus. That when you look at the Jesus story as a series of prophecies you will find them fulfilled in "Wars of the Jews".

There's more to Atwill's argument than that. Atwill thinks that the gospels were written as a deliberate hoax to fool the Jews into worshipping Titus. He thinks that there was a forgery factory that used Josephus as a template to write the religious literature of the Christians. He tries to show this by listing the parallels between Josephus and the gospels.

He has convinced very few people, but he was able to put together a professionally produced documentary containing interviews with other scholars who do not support him but at least take him seriously for the length of the interview.

But this doesn't actually explain why these forgeries attracted any sort of a following, at least until some later Roman Emperors put the force of the Roman state behind them.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-17-2013, 06:06 PM	#213
jdboy Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NW United States Posts: 155	I see no better argument than Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. It answers all the questions

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.