Duvduv

In which case there were specific limits to the enforcement ability of the Regime. But of course the question is how many "heretics" actually existed to be persecuted, and how many were simply convenient inventions designed in "histories" and "apologies" to reinforce the image of the great orthodox regime. There's no real way of knowing because there is no evidence of the existence of these groups.

Chili

Are you trying to tell us here that they packed sandwiches to get done what they achieved?

And is their 'itch' to preach and gain converts, territories, land claims and all not the same as it is today? And you call them victims in this?

Catholics are told to bloom where they are planted so they can enjoy paradise on earth for which only a change of vision is needed, and here you still think that to plunder and steal is the right way to go.

And did you know that Catholics do not have a salvation recipe of their own? and you insists that they are Christians still? while in fact anything with such a thing must necessarily half baked and should be boiled in their own brew-pot to finish them off, and are they not begging for that when they assault the kingdom of God in Christen domain?

Sheshbazzar

Most of that 'evidence' that could have posed any threat to Christianity would have been from the educated and scholars, which in most instances would have been found in the population centers with their temples and philosophical academies, and thus easily accessible to Rome and its Legionaries control.
The mostly illiterate Germanic tribes, while presenting a military challenge, were of little intellectual threat to the claims of Roman Christianity.

No doubt there is much that is invented in the Christians "histories" and "apologies", but on the other hand we will never know how much of real Roman thought and history, the 'evidence' that those in power wished to suppress, went up in the flames of Christian book burnings.

The beliefs and thoughts of the intellectual community of Imperial Rome from the 2rd through 5th century was ruthlessly purged, and grossly distorted by Christianity and the Roman government colluding to destroy any persons or writings that brought into question or opposed its claims or its advancement.

Thus what survives of that period is not accurately representative of what contemporary non-Christians thought about Christianity, how many opposed it, or what they were being subjected to.

It was an era of harsh oppression of all dissent, and of the writing a 'history' that white-washed the dirty deeds of of the oppressors, similar in tactics and practice to those of Stalinist Russia, combined with the back stabbing 'everyone-is-an-informer-for-the-State' of Fascist totalitarianism.

The "history" the Church chose to preserve (and invent) and hand down to us is less than half of the story.

Duvduv

I follow your points, Shesh. What I could never understand was a scenario presented by official churchdom itself where on the one hand people were writing "Contra Him" and "Contra the Other" allegedly from the second century, prior to the advent of the coercive power of the State, and yet, later, well into the life of the new Constantinian state you find descriptions of those councils and canons that suggest that there were still problems and debates in crystalizing the new religion that should have been settled LONG BEFORE.

It is ludicrous that an Irenaeus would write a book against heretics at a time when the whole alleged existence of the religion involved a relatively tiny number of people with no coercive power, and yet two and three hundred years later there were still books, canons and councils addressing all types of issue, declaring this or that to be heresy, but evidently in general folks continued on the their merry way despite the fact that things had already been figured out and established way back in the second century.

On the other hand, in other periods we know very clearly what was going on in the days of the Reformation, the pre-Reformation, the counter-Reformation, the Inquisition, etc. all in relation to a centralized Church in Rome. So that's why I keep wondering whether in fact much of the storyline about the existence of competing sects is authentic, and not only in the case of the biggest bogeyman (until Arius and Nestorius) - Marcion who allegedly lived in the second century when I strongly doubt any Christianity existed yet at all (except in the minds of the Regime and his attack dogs of the 4th century).

Chili

I think it is simply a matter of truth wherein philosophy wins, and will always win time and time again.

To blame lack of integrity on book burning just adds fuel to the fire. And would you not think that after 2000 years of searching they should come up with something better than that? Now with 20.000 denominations strong fighting against one Catholic Church that gave them the right to go on their own, and all they have done is divide and scatter some more with no enemy against them except their own?

Catholicism is a living faith that is not stagnated by history and of which their 'infallibility claim is the necessary proclamation they made. Just like a Freeman but here now under their shield..

Iskander

Who are you calling “attack dogs”?

Duvduv

Any of the heresiologists/apologists whose job it was to build up the new religious system........

Chili

Was it not the Jews by who's law, and by who's law only that Jesus must die, and knew exactly how it was done and even cautioned Pilate that if he would not remain in the netherworld for three days the 'final impostor' would be worse than the first, . . . now calling Jesus an impostor for which he needed to die.

If you add this all up, was it not the Jews who were the main drive behind this movement? to be the final end for their cause.

Now I can see you feel a little oppressed by all those wolves in sheep's clothing prowling around trying to convert anything that will listen to them including Jews, to even zapping a cat to the glory of God on their way out after a good evangelistic event.

But the Catholic Church is not called Christian, is it? And do they ever knock on your door to preach the good news to you?

Sheshbazzar

We do not have Marcion's writings. Marcion was best known as an opponent of the 'Regime', ___or rather it was the 'Regime' that ferociously opposed Marcion.

Are you certain you meant it was Marcion that had attack dogs, and not the Regime?
I'm very aware of a multitude of Christian writings that ferociously attack Marcionitisim, but none from Marcion that attack the orthodoxy.

Duvduv

Sorry, I meant "its" not "his," i.e. the regime attack dogs.