aa5874

I can form an opinion of what started the Jesus story based on the evidence from antiquity.

It was the Fall of the Temple and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

Examine Tertullian's "Against the Jews" It is extremely important to understand what Tertullian wrote--it was PREDICTED by Daniel ..."After the Passion of Christ, the City had to be exterminated"

Once the Temple Fell and Jerusalem was devastated it was claimed that Jesus did already come.

There was no need for an actual Jesus Christ but the Temple must first Fall and the City made desolate.

Essentially, after the Temple Fell a story was manufactured to match the supposed prophecies in the books of the Prophets.

These stories about a Crucified Christ based on the Fall of the Temple and supposed Prophecies were composed sometime after the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius or after c 115 CE.

Clivedurdle

The Greek Myths meet the Jewish Myths in an oriental cult in a cave somewhere, possibly breathing in volcanic fumes. Watching the dawn was a critical part of the ceremonies.

The rituals are first, the stories were written later to explain the rituals. Eating and drinking communally, a once for all sacrifice instead of regularly sacrificing, the Greek idea of priesthood of all believers, baptism to enter the cult, eating and drinking and singing and ecstasy all night long culminating in leaving the cave at dawn.

J-D

How did the fall of the Temple and the words in the books of the Prophets start a story that has things in it that are not in the books of the Prophets, and aren't the fall of the Temple either? Who manufactured the story, and why? And how did a manufactured story start Christianity?

J-D

So who was that preacher, and what was that preacher's message?

Clivedurdle

And btw, the op should be xianities.

aa5874

Again, which books are you referring to? Did you not read the books? Is it not stated in Tertullian's "AGainst the Jews" that Daniel predicted the Devastation of the Temple and the City?

Tertullian's "Against the Jews" Don't you see what is written? Don't you see that it is claimed Daniel predicted that both the Temple and the Holy City would be devastated by the Coming of the Lord?

Don't you know that Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius wrote about events at the time of the Fall of the Temple?

Please, be specific because you don't really seem to know what you are talking about.

Now, examine the writings of Justin he too would claim the Jews were suffering, their land made desolate and their cities burned because they killed the Just One.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho We know what started the Jesus story--- it was the Fall of the Temple, the desolation of Jerusalem and the Words of the Lord in the books of the Prophets.

The books of the Prophets are BOLTED to the story of Jesus and it is documented that the Jewish Temple did Fall and that the Jews suffered greatly at that time in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

J-D

Chapter 1 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?

Chapter 2 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?

Chapter 3 of Mark doesn't say anything about the fall of the Temple and doesn't come from any of the books you have just been talking about, so where does it come from?

Clivedurdle

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html

Vorkosigan

I have no idea exactly what was seen because the original visions have been lost to history. Visions do not necessarily have to fulfill a need, many people have them, but not all acquire a following. That is more a matter of other features of the visionary -- persuasiveness, education, social networks, social context, etc.

I prefer to stay with the evidence we have that Earl has interpreted as showing that the early Christians did not know a human Jesus but instead worshiped a figure who had made a cosmic sacrifice in the heavens which had redeemed... well, then they argued about whether all men were redeemed, when redemption would occur, etc. Clearly the social process of working out what the vision and the social structures that grew up around it meant would go on until the present.

No, we have copious evidence on Hong. We know something about what the early Christian visionaries saw, but little about which one was first.

It is irrelevant whether Hong actually had visions (though I have no doubt he had some incredible experience) so long as he was able to persuade others that he did.

Since no one claims that the early Christians got the whole text of a book out of vision, I don't understand your questions.

It is not possible to know why people have visions. We don't have the ability to crack open the brain and look yet.

Vorkosigan

spin

Who is not important. It wasn't a specific preacher, but "a" preacher. Does it matter if it was a Paul or an Apollos or a Cephas or any of the unnamed itinerant preachers the Didache cautions believers about? The message was the same, salvation, but the packaging was probably different, depending on the preacher and the moment in time.