Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cheerful Charlie · 07-15-2013, 07:26 PM

Isaiah 53:2
For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.

From Isaiah we get verses represented as prophecies of the coming of Jesus. And this verse has long been used to indicate Jesus was not handsome. He was not represented as having Greek ancestry in the genealogies. He was not seen as a Roman citizen like Paul. No gospel clearly describes him.

Whatever

Cheerful Charlie

James The Least · 07-15-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The alternative is the gospels being an outright fiction written by non Jews.

I think you're starting to catch on.

mountainman · 07-15-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The alternative is the gospels being an outright fiction written by non Jews.

I think you're starting to catch on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Gregory J. Riley argues that Jesus is more Greek than Jewish in One Jesus, Many Christs. His reasons I've posted on here and here. The basic idea is that the values expressed in the life and teachings of Jesus are in essence epitomes of the ancient Classical ideals.

From Why Christianity spread so rapidly to become the main religion of the Roman empire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor of Religion Gregory J. Riley

It was the appeal of the early Church to the wider Greco-Roman society that fueled its rise, and that appeal was very much a result of its success in modeling the ideals of the culture as a whole. The early Christians imitated and copied the fundamental values found in the literature and stories of its wider culture as it formed its self-image and presented itself to the world. . . .

Christianity took hold in the empire as no foreign cult could (for example, Judaism, the Isis cult, and Mithraism) precisely because it was not foreign, but an expression and imitation of the best the empire had to offer.

Thanks for those two articles neilgodfrey .

Acts 17:28 ....... For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said [about ZEUS !!!!!], 'We are his offspring.'

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 07-16-2013, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Gregory J. Riley argues that Jesus is more Greek than Jewish in One Jesus, Many Christs. His reasons I've posted on here and here. The basic idea is that the values expressed in the life and teachings of Jesus are in essence epitomes of the ancient Classical ideals.

I went looking for some examples and read the following ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vridar

Riley challenges the above rhetoric of the gulf between pagan culture and Christianity:

Yet the rhetoric has led us away from what many Christian writers knew well, that very many good ideas found among Christians came from Greek tradition. Greek-speaking Christians defended the use of classical literature as foundational for good character, ethical behavior, and a proper education, well into the fourth century and beyond. Christians in antiquity never developed their own school texts to replace the classics until forced to do so by Emperor Julian in the mid-fourth century. Christians raided the classical tradition for its good ideas and then condemned pagan authors for their immoral myths; Julian finally took offense and made the Christians face their own hypocrisy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vridar

My next post

. . . . will flesh out the above with some specific examples of the ways in which the Gospels and Paul can be shown to have addressed pagan ideals and applied them to Jewish characters.

I have supplied one example above (Acts 17:28) acknowledged by the author of Acts.

What are other examples of the NT authors adopting Greek wisdom for their own purposes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vridar

The power (or winning appeal) of the cross

Though Paul said the cross was a stumblingblock to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles, the fact was that the cross contained enough meaning to win over the empire. It did this by investing the cross with one of the noblest messages of paganism:

a righteous and powerful Son of God is persecuted by unjust authorities, divine and human, faces his own horrible death with courage, and overcomes

.

Riley comments:

This is not an Israelite story, but it is the oldest and most inspiring plot-line in Greco-Roman literature. (p.95)

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Clivedurdle · 07-17-2013, 04:49 AM

Quote:

until forced to do so by Emperor Julian in the mid-fourth century.

Would someone expand on this? What did Julian force the xians to do?

Toto · 07-17-2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

until forced to do so by Emperor Julian in the mid-fourth century.

Would someone expand on this? What did Julian force the xians to do?

The quote comes from Neil Godfrey quoting Gregory J. Riley's essay

(Riley, G. J. (2001) Mimesis of Classical Ideals in the Second Christian Century. In MacDonald, D. R. (Ed.) Mimesis and Intertextuality in Antiquity and Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Riley is also the author of One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus Inspired Not One True Christianity, but Many (or via: amazon.co.uk)

I think he just means that Julian, by trying to revive the old pagan ways, forced Christians to differentiate themselves from the pagan classics. But Riley might have something more specific in mind.

neilgodfrey · 07-17-2013, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

until forced to do so by Emperor Julian in the mid-fourth century.

Would someone expand on this? What did Julian force the xians to do?

I imagine Riley was referring to Julian's School Edict. Wikipedia explains:

Quote:

In his School Edict Julian required that all public teachers be approved by the Emperor; the state paid or supplemented much of their salaries. Ammianus Marcellinus explains this as intending to prevent Christian teachers from using pagan texts (such as the Iliad, which was widely regarded as divinely inspired) that formed the core of classical education: "If they want to learn literature, they have Luke and Mark: Let them go back to their churches and expound on them", the edict says.[96] This was an attempt to remove some of the power of the Christian schools which at that time and later used ancient Greek literature in their teachings in their effort to present the Christian religion as being superior to paganism. The edict was also a severe financial blow, because it deprived Christian scholars, tutors and teachers of many students.

Neil

Horatio Parker · 07-17-2013, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

It's a great pity West's East Face of Helicon: West Asiatic Elements in Greek Poetry and Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk) is so damned expensive. It's the sort of volume that does much to open up our understanding of the Asian-Greek cultural connections -- if only more people could afford to read it.

Along those line there's also The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies (or via: amazon.co.uk)

There was ample opportunity to share ideas during the Persian empire, since it stretched from Greece to India. There were Greek mercenaries and expat communities.

But my recollection is that there's no knowing who influenced who. Ideas could've flowed either way. Maybe reincarnation was a western idea that found its way east, or Buddha influenced by Heraclitus.

BTW, big fan of your blog here.

Clivedurdle · 07-17-2013, 04:07 PM

There might be a terrifying lesson here - don't over react - it causes an arms race that you might lose. If Julian had not done that, might xian teachers teaching the iliad have found their way back to the true gods?

mountainman · 07-17-2013, 04:21 PM

BOOK BURNING by Christian Emperors

Quote:

The burning of obnoxious books by public authority of church or state is indeed as old as the book-trade. A work of Protagoras, in which he doubted the existence of the Greek gods, was burned at the stake in Athens about twenty years after the death of Pericles. The Emperor Augustus subjected slanderous publications (libelli famosi) to legal prosecution and destruction by fire.

Christian emperors employed their authority against heathen, heretical, and infidel books. Constantine the Great, backed by the Council of Nicaea, issued an edict against the writings of Porphyry and Arius; Accadius, against the books of the Eunomians (398); Theodosius, against the books of the Nestorians (435).

Justinian commanded the destruction of sundry obnoxious works, and forbade their re-issue on pain of losing the right arm (536). The oecumenical synod of 680 at Constantinople burned the books which it had condemned, including the letters of the Monothelitic Pope Honorius.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

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07-15-2013, 07:26 PM	#21
Cheerful Charlie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 3,884	Isaiah 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. From Isaiah we get verses represented as prophecies of the coming of Jesus. And this verse has long been used to indicate Jesus was not handsome. He was not represented as having Greek ancestry in the genealogies. He was not seen as a Roman citizen like Paul. No gospel clearly describes him. Whatever Cheerful Charlie

07-17-2013, 04:07 PM	#29
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	There might be a terrifying lesson here - don't over react - it causes an arms race that you might lose. If Julian had not done that, might xian teachers teaching the iliad have found their way back to the true gods?

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