Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 09-10-2013, 01:48 PM

The question Irenaeus is asking in all this is "how do we know who is right"? He has forged gospels in mind. His answer is "we in the church have direct access to the apostles. I knew Polycarp; he knew John. My church's bishop was appointed by X who was appointed by Y who was appointed by apostle Z." In our church you can hear the same preaching that the apostles preached, and you can find the same preaching in the other churches that can prove their founders. Our books are accessible to everyone and come from the apostles.

The heretics more or less accept the force of this argument, by responding "Ah! but that was the public teaching!!! In secret the apostles taught this, and here is their gospel". To which the church replied, "Go look at our list of bishops, and the fact that we don't change our teachings, while yours change with every new teacher". The latter reflects the point that the heretics were also drawing on the philosophical schools, where each philosopher had to teach his own thing in order to get pupils. This is why Valentinus' disciples all innovate.

The later teaching of the apostolic succession grows out of these arguments. Because the canon was undefined, it couldn't be appealed to in the way that was possible after late antiquity.

Roger Pearse · 09-10-2013, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter [Irenaeus Against Heresies 3.2.1]

Where was this kept and who is 'us' here? The Roman Church or the Roman people? Was there a Church building which housed the manuscript of according to Mark in a library? If not why aren't the other gospels listed as being in 'our' possession?

Actually the same wording is used of Luke in an anti-Marcionite section of Book Three:

Quote:

But surely if Luke, who always preached in company with Paul, and is called by him “the beloved,” and with him performed the work of an evangelist, and was entrusted to hand down to us a Gospel, learned nothing different from him (Paul), as has been pointed out from his words, how can these men, who were never attached to Paul, boast that they have learned hidden and unspeakable mysteries? [3.14]

Does this mean that both autograph copies of the works - associated with the Marcionites - were in the possession of the Church? Rome was in Irenaeus's eye the Church of Peter and Paul (cf. AH 3.2.2) not just Peter.

I read this a little differently. To me, there is no mention of autographs; the originals are handed down by copying.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 01:52 PM

Quote:

I read this a little differently. To me, there is no mention of autographs; the originals are handed down by copying.

Ok I can live with that. But one can read the text as the true copies of Matthew (3.9.1), Mark (3.1.1) and Luke (3.14.1, 1.27.2) even the Pauline writings (1.27.2) were in the possession of the Church at Rome at the time Irenaeus was writing. John by contrast was slightly more controversial. It was at Ephesus and Polycarp testified to its authenticity, no? I don't see any evidence that the copy of John was 'at Rome' at the time Irenaeus was writing any of this unless I am misunderstanding something or I am reading too much into this. There is a 'here' argument - i.e. the manuscripts are right here available to us and John is 'there' (Ephesus) cf. 3.1.1 "Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia" and 3.3.4 via Polycarp etc and "the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles." The manuscript of John even a copy of it is the only one where readers are directed to another place meaning by inference that the three - Matthew, Mark and Luke are 'here' (Rome). The question is where? I say the Palatine library or some public library in Rome.

MrMacSon · 09-10-2013, 03:41 PM

It is possible Christianity had its origins BCE.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 03:42 PM

No its not

Cheerful Charlie · 09-10-2013, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I strongly suspect they were. Here are my reasons for thinking so:

1. Celsus draws on a wide range of sources. I don't think he was purchasing Christian manuscripts and keeping them in a private collection.
2. Part of the Catholic Church's effort to distinguish themselves from the heresies was their openness. They didn't have secret gospels. (Praescr Haer 22) What better way to demonstrate their openness than have their books in public libraries?
3. If Christians preached openly then what would stop them from wanting their books held in public libraries?
4. I think that the apologetic works - especially appeals to the Emperor - would have wanted to gain as great an audience as possible.
5. Tert., Apol. 31.1 (142,5-6 DEK.) says that Christians do not hide their books which "many occasions transfer to outsiders."

That's a start at least. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Supposedly, many Christian books were burned during the persecutions of Diocletian and Maximus. So I suspect any Christian works in readily available libraries would have been lost about 230 CE or so.

Cheerful Charlie

aa5874 · 09-10-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Unlike you apparently, I approach matters scientifically which means I begin with questions and slowly come to a better understanding. My blog reflects that and it is said explicitly there that this it acts as a public 'notebook' reflecting where my mind is at. I am still not convinced of a strong connection to Lyons. Irenaeus though certainly wrote during the time of Commodus.

You keep changing your position. You do not appear credible. You are mis-representing your own opinion in your own blog. You have argued that parts of "Against Heresies" was written in the third century.

I know of no scientific approach that argues two opposing positions simultaneously.

In any event, in the time of Commodus, it is claimed that Commodus allowed Christians to be SLAUGHTERED.

I have exposed your fallacy that that Christians" weren't despised at the time of Commodus nor through the Severan period".

Just being called a Christian was a CRIME so it is not logical at all that the Roman Emperor Commodus would allow the writings of Criminals in Public libraries who did NOT worship Roman Emperors as Gods.

Athenagoras wrote in the time of Commodus and claimed they were defamed and persecuted.

Athenagoras' Plea for the Christians

Quote:

But, since our doctrine acknowledges one God, the Maker of this universe, who is Himself uncreated (for that which is does not come to be, but that which is not) but has made all things by the Logos which is from Him, we are treated unreasonably in both respects, in that we are both defamed and persecuted.

stephan huller · 09-10-2013, 06:49 PM

Hopefully someone gets the point. How did the canonical gospels "beat" their heretical counterparts?

aa5874 · 09-10-2013, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Hopefully someone gets the point. How did the canonical gospels "beat" their heretical counterparts?

Have you ever heard of Constantine?

Your question is like asking how is it that the author of Superman claimed his character was from Krypton.

If Constantine was a Marcionite then we would expect the Marcionite doctrine in the Canon.

mountainman · 09-10-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Was Apuleius really that must more sophisticated than Tatian or Justin?

YES. See WIKI on Apuleius

He studied Platonist philosophy at Athens among other subjects. He was an initiate in several cults or mysteries, including the Dionysian mysteries. He was a priest (therapuetai) of Aesculapius and, according to Augustine, sacerdos provinciae Africae (i. e. priest of the province of Carthage).

Statues were erected in his honour by the senate of Carthage and of other senates.[Apuleius, Apology, 55, 73; Florida, iii. n. 16; Augustine, Ep. v]

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09-10-2013, 01:48 PM	#61
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	The question Irenaeus is asking in all this is "how do we know who is right"? He has forged gospels in mind. His answer is "we in the church have direct access to the apostles. I knew Polycarp; he knew John. My church's bishop was appointed by X who was appointed by Y who was appointed by apostle Z." In our church you can hear the same preaching that the apostles preached, and you can find the same preaching in the other churches that can prove their founders. Our books are accessible to everyone and come from the apostles. The heretics more or less accept the force of this argument, by responding "Ah! but that was the public teaching!!! In secret the apostles taught this, and here is their gospel". To which the church replied, "Go look at our list of bishops, and the fact that we don't change our teachings, while yours change with every new teacher". The latter reflects the point that the heretics were also drawing on the philosophical schools, where each philosopher had to teach his own thing in order to get pupils. This is why Valentinus' disciples all innovate. The later teaching of the apostolic succession grows out of these arguments. Because the canon was undefined, it couldn't be appealed to in the way that was possible after late antiquity.

09-10-2013, 03:41 PM	#64
MrMacSon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: South Pacific Posts: 559	It is possible Christianity had its origins BCE.

09-10-2013, 03:42 PM	#65
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	No its not

09-10-2013, 06:49 PM	#68
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Hopefully someone gets the point. How did the canonical gospels "beat" their heretical counterparts?

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