Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 05-23-2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excreationist

I've just been told about the following site:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

It gives alternative views on passages that are used to support the idea that hell involves eternal torment.

I found it quite convincing. I am more of a fan of the Christian God now though I am currently an atheist.

From the top of that page ....

Quote:

Believe what the Jewish Apostles taught not what the Greek Philosophers taught.

Summary:

Why teaching the fate of the lost, (as torment forever) is unbiblical and not hermeneutically correct.

Why "Conditional Immortality" is absolutely true and all unsaved souls will one day be "destroyed".

A CHALLENGE TO THOSE WHO DISAGREE.

We are so persuaded of our position, and so confident in the Scriptural evidence presented on this site, that we honestly do not believe that anyone who shares our faith in the final authority of Scripture will be able to cling to endless torment after reading this entire site and the links.

Note: All articles are evangelical (Messianic Jewish) in nature and not pertaining to any specific denomination. (copyright 2013).

This is not an evangelical discussion forum.

Quote:

It is clear that Plato and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible.
....
However, the scriptures teach the soul is destructible and immortality is part of the gospel.

And I will back Plato over the anonymous monstrous tale of the gospel any day of the week.

Quote:

It is very long but it has to be in order to explain why the Biblical support for eternal torment seemed overwhelming.

I don't understand this position. Are you saying that the purpose of the Bible is to inculcate the human race into the reality of some form of eternal torment? Perhaps you have a point. Can you be more specific?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 05-23-2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excreationist

I've just been told about the following site:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

About Plato ....

Quote:

* It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible.

* ..."The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent…" The Jewish Encyclopedia ( www.jewishencyclopedia.com - searched "immortality" )

* ..."Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)

* ..."immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine…" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)

* ..."It is a truism that Plato's teaching has profoundly influenced Christian anthropology." (Forward by F.F. Bruce, The Fire that Consumes, Edward Fudge .)

*Summary of above:

Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality - without God.

This is false. The concept of god was built in to Platonic philosophy with the concept of "The ONE".

Quote:

Greek Philosophers or

Jewish Biblical Authors

Whom do you believe and why?

The former.

I don't think that Greek literate Jews authored the New Testament.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-23-2013, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

On the other hand, the passage below suggests that at least some folks will suffer. Note the “everlasting abhorance” motif.

Daniel 12:1-2
At that time Michael, the great prince who watches over your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress unlike any other from the nation’s beginning up to that time. But at that time your own people, all those whose names are found written in the book, will escape. Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Regarding Daniel 12:1-2, the author of the OP cited in the essay claims that the contempt is everlasting (the translation he uses says 'contempt', but either way, he claims contempt and abhorrence will be everlasting), but that's on the part of those in Heaven.

I admit I haven’t visited the link. But where are you getting ‘those in Heaven’?

It looks to me like this stuff was supposed to happen on earth – or some kind of ‘new earth’. The ‘resurrection’ – at least as far as Daniel 12 and Isaiah 66 was concerned, was supposed to happen on earth.

Wasn’t it?

Those who arose to everlasting life (on earth) will witness the everlasting abhorrence (on earth).

At least that’s the way I see it.

Juma · 05-23-2013, 09:49 PM

<->

Angra Mainyu · 05-23-2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu

Regarding Daniel 12:1-2, the author of the OP cited in the essay claims that the contempt is everlasting (the translation he uses says 'contempt', but either way, he claims contempt and abhorrence will be everlasting), but that's on the part of those in Heaven.

I admit I haven’t visited the link. But where are you getting ‘those in Heaven’?

It looks to me like this stuff was supposed to happen on earth – or some kind of ‘new earth’. The ‘resurrection’ – at least as far as Daniel 12 and Isaiah 66 was concerned, was supposed to happen on earth.

Wasn’t it?

Those who arose to everlasting life (on earth) will witness the everlasting abhorrence (on earth).

At least that’s the way I see it.

I'm getting the 'those in Heaven' part from the link. While the author does not specify in that particular part of the essay where those who awake to everlasting life will be, he does so in several other parts of the essay, and says it's Heaven.

In any case, the argument made by the author seems to be independent of the issue of whether the saved are in Heaven or Earth. And his claim would be that the disgust/abhorrence is not something witnessed by anyone, but it's the emotions experienced by those saved towards those who are not saved.

To be clear, I'm not claiming that the above is the proper interpretation of the biblical text, regarding Heaven or any other point. I was/am just pointing out what the author of the essay in question says.

Side note: the author does not capitalize the word 'heaven' except in quotations, though a book he recommends does; I don't think that that makes a difference in this context. For that matter, he does not capitalize 'earth', either.

hjalti · 05-24-2013, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

Fwiw the “fire and worms motif” can be found here:

Isaiah 66:22-24
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth I am about to make will remain standing before me,” says Yahweh, “so your descendants and your name will remain. From one month to the next and from one Sabbath to the next, all flesh will bow down to worship me,” says Yahweh. “They will go out and observe the corpses of those who rebelled against me, for the worms that eat them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished, and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Note that it is the fire and the worms that are everlasting; not (necessarily) the souls of the bad guys.

Right, 'the bad guys' seem to be dead. But in Judith it's clear that the people are in eternal torment, they "weep with pain for evermore".

excreationist, ok, even though not all Christians accept Judith, it's clear from it (and some other writings) that the idea of eternal torment was very well known in Judaism. So when you see Jesus in Matthew talk about "eternal fire" and "eternal punishment" (in Mt 25 IIRC) I think it's natural to conclude that he has this in mind.

One more thing, the article you reference repeats the claim that during Jesus' time "Gehenna" was a garbage dumb with fires. Does anybody know of any ancient source that actually says this? I've heard this very often, but I've never seen a source for it, and I recall reading in a commentary on Matthew (I think, don't recall which) that the author hadn't found one either.

The author on the other hand doesn't seem to mention the use of 'Gehenna' in other ancient jewish writings around Jesus' time. Why not? :huh:

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-24-2013, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

... during Jesus' time "Gehenna" was a garbage dumb with fires. Does anybody know of any ancient source that actually says this? I've heard this very often, but I've never seen a source for it, and I recall reading in a commentary on Matthew (I think, don't recall which) that the author hadn't found one either.

Evidently it originated in David kimhi's (1160-1235 CE) commentary on Psalm 27:13.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimhi

And it was a despised place where they cast filth and corpses, and there was there perpetually a fire for the burning of the filth and the bones of the corpses. On account of this, the judgment place of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kimhi

http://www.google.com/search?q=david...ry+%22psalm+27

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-24-2013, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

The author on the other hand doesn't seem to mention the use of 'Gehenna' in other ancient jewish writings around Jesus' time.

Like this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Enoch 27:1-3

Then said I: 'For what object is this blessed land, which is entirely filled with trees, and this accursed valley between' Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: 'This accursed valley is for those who are accursed for ever: Here shall all the accursed be gathered together who utter with their lips against the Lord unseemly words and of His glory speak hard things. Here shall they be gathered together, and here shall be their place of judgement. In the last days there shall be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgement in the presence of the righteous for ever: here shall the merciful bless the Lord of glory, the Eternal King. In the days of judgement over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with which He has assigned them (their lot).' Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html
http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

Btw- there was no 'Jesus'. And Christians are not a very good source for learning about early Christianity.

hjalti · 05-24-2013, 08:12 AM

Thank you Bingo. Yes, I was thinking of 1Enoch.

masterpeastheater · 05-24-2013, 11:56 AM

I suppose if you are a Christian who believes the Bible is the inerrant "word of God", then it becomes implicitly necessary to downplay the contradictions between the OT and NT. One way to go about this is to finagle NT texts about the fate of the unsaved to be in agreement with the OT that is clearly and overwhelmingly in favor of annihilationism. This is not hard to do (Jude 7 being a good leadoff). The funny thing is, most fundies are willing to massage the OT and NT to be in agreement on every point EXCEPT this one. They really need their 'hell".

05-24-2013, 11:56 AM	#20
masterpeastheater Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 144	Interesting... I suppose if you are a Christian who believes the Bible is the inerrant "word of God", then it becomes implicitly necessary to downplay the contradictions between the OT and NT. One way to go about this is to finagle NT texts about the fate of the unsaved to be in agreement with the OT that is clearly and overwhelmingly in favor of annihilationism. This is not hard to do (Jude 7 being a good leadoff). The funny thing is, most fundies are willing to massage the OT and NT to be in agreement on every point EXCEPT this one. They really need their 'hell".

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05-23-2013, 09:49 PM	#14
Juma Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,812	<->

05-24-2013, 08:12 AM	#19
hjalti Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Iceland Posts: 761	Thank you Bingo. Yes, I was thinking of 1Enoch.

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