Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 07-10-2013, 04:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Duvduv

Sorry, Semi, I don't follow the logic of your point at all...

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Originally Posted by semiopen

I think Duvi is taking a neo-con position.

Thus all the persecutions suffered by the Jews at the hands of Christians equals the persecutions of the Jews by Islam (perhaps more or less some cosmic constant).

It's technically improper for a Jew to go into a church however he can discuss the Torah with a Christian. Sure he can go into a mosque however he can't discuss Torah with a Muslim.

This has nothing to do with the indignities of persecution to my knowledge, simply a theological position.

As usual, I had to think about it myself after I wrote it.

I was trying to say that you probably considered Muslims as evil as the Christians. "Evil Muslims" is a neo-con position so I made a little joke.

My point about being able to discuss the bible with a Christian but not with a Muslim was a correction of somebody else's post. The idea is that the Koran is not the bible and changes Mosaic Law.

Oddly I basically agree with most of what you said to Davka.

Duvduv · 07-10-2013, 05:25 AM

As a matter of fact I do not generalize about any groups, and am aware of bad Jews as much as of bad Christians or Muslims. There are good and bad everywhere.

Davka · 07-10-2013, 06:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Duvduv

What's the point of oversimplifying what has happened in Jewish history?

It's called "communication." It's what people do when having a conversation, as opposed to writing a book.

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What is the reason for dressing up Jewish experience in paranoia?

There is none, which is why I'm not.

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You know exactly what I mean.

No, I don't.

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If you knew Jewish history you would know that many problems in relationships between others and Jews are related to economic and social issues, not always religious ones.

You know that Jews under the Polish empire were restricted in employment and land ownership, forcing them to work directly as the agents of the regime against the peasantry, especially the UKRAINIAN peasantry, who were effectively serfs in their own country under the Poles, and who saw the Jews as the agents of oppression as tax collectors, etc. This was a dark stain on Jewish history, and part of the story of the 2000 year exile.

If you knew Jewish history, you would know that the reason that Jews were restricted in employment and land ownership in the first place was due to anti-Semitism.

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I don't want to address the issues of World War II because I am one of those Jews who does not agree with the entire narrative that everyone believes in like religious truth.

So you're a self-hating Jew and holocaust denier? :huh:

James The Least · 07-10-2013, 07:07 AM

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Originally Posted by Davka

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Originally Posted by Iskander

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Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

A Semitic, desert tribe wrote a book in which it glorified itself and convinced itself that it was the tribe of destiny backed by its own tribal deity. It was successful in war and invading other tribal territories, but its victories were short-lived and its view as a special group led to an arrogance that other cultures disliked and resisted. Never large in numbers, its main claim to fame was the derivative Abrahamic religions of Christianity and Islam.

It is worse than that. I’m always surprised at the amount of hatred the Jewish believers –as opposed to just Jewish—show against “the worshippers of the bastard son of a whore” , those Jewish zealots call Christians “ idolaters” and compare them unfavourably to Muslims.

Muslims are not guilty of idolatry , they say,and it is ok to enter a mosque and use the name Allah (god) if they live in a Muslim country. Christians belong to the devil, their churches are forbidden and the name of Jesus never to be acknowledged...
We are Amalekites to them

What do you expect? They have been persecuted and driven from place to place for centuries by people claiming to be Christians. They have been beaten and spat upon while being called "Christ killer." The Christian Inquisitors tortured Jews and chased them from Spain, the Christian Cossacks burned Jewish villages and chased them from Russia, Christian Poles handed them over to be gassed and burned by Christian Germans, Christian Americans called them "kikes" and beat up their children on the way to school.

Do you imagine that this treatment would result in a healthy love of Christians among the Jews?

Not quite sure what the difference is between "people claiming to be Christians" and Christians.

Davka · 07-10-2013, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Not quite sure what the difference is between "people claiming to be Christians" and Christians.

Just short-cutting past the "no true christian" derail. It's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, so why go there?

steve_bnk · 07-10-2013, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As a matter of fact I do not generalize about any groups, and am aware of bad Jews as much as of bad Christians or Muslims. There are good and bad everywhere.

I do generalize. Religion and specially the Abrahamic religions have been and continue to be a major source of conflict ad divides. Israel it self is not without its sectarian issues.

Over here Christians argue over which one is a real Christian. We recently had two members of congress throwing biblical quotes at each other one jusfying issues like health care and one rejecting it as 'non biblical'.

I do not prejudge any individual based on religion. I can accept anyone without regard to religion, race, ethnicity, or sexuality.

True followers of the Abrahamics by the nature of their biblical/Koranic beliefs define 'us vs them'. It is inescapable.

To an observant Jew, Christian, or Muslim me as a non believer carries baggage. I am judged for a lack of faith. Allowing for my validity invalidates the belief in truth of a faith.

In your opinion what is a good Jew, Christian, or Muslim vs non good?

To the op Judaism as depicted in the bible sets Jews apart from the rest of humanity. An attempt to set apart based on a deity.

My eyes make it difficult to read books these days. From some of the material on the forum and net I am starting to think Jews at least in part have been the cause of their oppression. A certain arrogance.

steve_bnk · 07-10-2013, 08:20 AM

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Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

What do you expect? They have been persecuted and driven from place to place for centuries by people claiming to be Christians. They have been beaten and spat upon while being called "Christ killer." The Christian Inquisitors tortured Jews and chased them from Spain, the Christian Cossacks burned Jewish villages and chased them from Russia, Christian Poles handed them over to be gassed and burned by Christian Germans, Christian Americans called them "kikes" and beat up their children on the way to school.

Do you imagine that this treatment would result in a healthy love of Christians among the Jews?

Not quite sure what the difference is between "people claiming to be Christians" and Christians.

Some Christians reject the Catholics as not being biblical, some reject Mormons as Christian.

Some evangelicals do bit accept each other as authentic Christians.

On a CNN panel show on evolution vs creationism two Christians laid into each other as not being real Christian.

Duvduv · 07-10-2013, 08:24 AM

Anyone who builds his "career" on destroying the values and teachings of Judaism and MISLEADS the masses is a bad person. Indeed, the Tanakh itself is replete with cases of such people, such "Jews" who were internal enemies, as it is written, "Your destroyers and demolishers shall emerge from you." (Isaiah 49:17).

Although Judaism does not accept the theological teachings of Christianity and Islam, wherever there are people seeking to overthrow essential morality and justice, they are bad, and the opposite would be good people.

One can consider modern hedonistic culture to be degenerate without assuming that all members of society are bad.

steve_bnk · 07-10-2013, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Anyone who builds his "career" on destroying the values and teachings of Judaism and MISLEADS the masses is a bad person. Indeed, the Tanakh itself is replete with cases of such people, such "Jews" who were internal enemies, as it is written, "Your destroyers and demolishers shall emerge from you." (Isaiah 49:17).

Although Judaism does not accept the theological teachings of Christianity and Islam, wherever there are people seeking to overthrow essential morality and justice, they are bad, and the opposite would be good people.

One can consider modern hedonistic culture to be degenerate without assuming that all members of society are bad.

This is a conversation I would like to have with you. I will start another thread.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....24#post7501624

mbczion · 07-10-2013, 08:45 AM

Quote:

My eyes make it difficult to read books these days. From some of the material on the forum and net I am starting to think Jews at least in part have been the cause of their oppression. A certain arrogance.

Steve, can you give some examples from this forum?

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07-10-2013, 05:25 AM	#172
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	As a matter of fact I do not generalize about any groups, and am aware of bad Jews as much as of bad Christians or Muslims. There are good and bad everywhere.

07-10-2013, 08:24 AM	#178
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Anyone who builds his "career" on destroying the values and teachings of Judaism and MISLEADS the masses is a bad person. Indeed, the Tanakh itself is replete with cases of such people, such "Jews" who were internal enemies, as it is written, "Your destroyers and demolishers shall emerge from you." (Isaiah 49:17). Although Judaism does not accept the theological teachings of Christianity and Islam, wherever there are people seeking to overthrow essential morality and justice, they are bad, and the opposite would be good people. One can consider modern hedonistic culture to be degenerate without assuming that all members of society are bad.

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