Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 05:43 AM

Tell me, what evidence do you have of theMuslim sweep through North Africa in those desert sands ? Or for any other of the questions I posed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you mean "And how much evidence is enough to confirm a million people? What resources are needed for that? "

This doesn't answer my question or clarify yours.

Are you trying to imply that there could be evidence that hasn't been found yet, inspite of intensive explorations?

Just a little quibble Toto.

Of course Duvi is being absurd and easy to refute, but a much smaller number than a million people would have left traces in the Sinai that would have been found. For example, I think 10,000 people would have certainly left evidence in the Sinai that would have been discovered by now.

Sort of like Would you Believe in Get Smart

Get Smart Prequel - "Would You Believe..." .

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Tell me, what evidence do you have of theMuslim sweep through North Africa in those desert sands ? Or for any other of the questions I posed?

I posted this link yesterday which addresses the archaeological issues during this period.

From Africa to Ifr ı¯qiya: Settlement and Society in Early Medieval North Africa (650 – 800)

As I stated you are not interested in why this might be. Why don't you read that article and think about why the issues are totally different in 13th century BCE Canaan?

Archaeology is a tool, but it doesn't completely address reconstructing the past.

As I mentioned about Masada yesterday, there are no obvious Jewish remains there. This is puzzling but is hardly a reflection on archaeology. This question is an interesting one, but you have no absolutely no interest in finding out why. Probably you believe they just haven't found them for one reason or another. On the other hand, maybe somebody moved them.

If someone asks a question, they are typically interested in the answer. You are not interested and this can be seen as hypocritical.

Your examples have nothing to do with the Exodus. Instead of giving assignments, why not take the time to develop your own ideas? Nobody is trying to convert you here, you are just parading your laziness and sloppiness as virtues.

Sarpedon · 05-21-2013, 06:33 AM

Umm, there are cities in North Africa?

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 06:37 AM

It's a bit of a pain to download the reference -

Quote:

In the past two decades, a wealth of new archaeological data has emerged for Late Antique and medieval North Africa,leading to a boom in research on subjects ranging from Late Antique urbanism to Islamic secondary state formation.3However, the question of the impact of the Arab conquests on North Africa has yet to be revisited in light of the new evidence. This article therefore outlines the potential of archaeological data for understanding settlement and society in early medieval North Africa, and offers some preliminary observations on the nature of Arab rule.

If someone wants to understand the issues this article looks like a productive step.

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 07:37 AM

I wasn't talking about investigations into settlements. I was referring to the belief about the Muslim sweep and conquest into North Africa after Mohammed. Read the conclusions on the last page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Tell me, what evidence do you have of theMuslim sweep through North Africa in those desert sands ? Or for any other of the questions I posed?

I posted this link yesterday which addresses the archaeological issues during this period.

From Africa to Ifr ı¯qiya: Settlement and Society in Early Medieval North Africa (650 – 800)

As I stated you are not interested in why this might be. Why don't you read that article and think about why the issues are totally different in 13th century BCE Canaan?

Archaeology is a tool, but it doesn't completely address reconstructing the past.

As I mentioned about Masada yesterday, there are no obvious Jewish remains there. This is puzzling but is hardly a reflection on archaeology. This question is an interesting one, but you have no absolutely no interest in finding out why. Probably you believe they just haven't found them for one reason or another. On the other hand, maybe somebody moved them.

If someone asks a question, they are typically interested in the answer. You are not interested and this can be seen as hypocritical.

Your examples have nothing to do with the Exodus. Instead of giving assignments, why not take the time to develop your own ideas? Nobody is trying to convert you here, you are just parading your laziness and sloppiness as virtues.

semiopen · 05-21-2013, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I wasn't talking about investigations into settlements. I was referring to the belief about the Muslim sweep and conquest into North Africa after Mohammed. Read the conclusions on the last page.

This is totally out of line, I don't see anything in the conclusions that questions the accepted historical understanding of this period. If there is, what prevents you from copying and pasting it - do you have some Haredi mouse that doesn't copy and paste?

I was sort of kidding that you were lazy but now I am just aghast.

This also has nothing to do with the Exodus, if anything you seem to be now arguing that archaeology is essential for understanding this period, how much more so for the Exodus with no historical accounts?

outhouse · 05-21-2013, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Upside down?? Please don't exaggerate. And who funded it? George Soros? And using what technology?

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Your lost here.

You also argue with Israels best and brightest archeologist

http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm

Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan" (3).

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

Your wrong and have supplied nothing but biased opinion on the matter while im providing the top archeologist in Israel as a source, there is no exageration going on.

You missed this part right here where it states factually.

Quote:

"The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture

So, please stop with the biased opinion and provide sources. We dont write history from within mythology and theological biases

Duvduv · 05-21-2013, 12:46 PM

For all the swipes about "haredi Jews" you have to ask yourself whether the many numbers of Biblical commentators from all over the place didn't wonder about the same things you wonder about, and yet they were not even afraid to offer different explanations that would some cast "aspersions" on the image of a monolithic narrative of all events in Jewish history.

They could be expected to hide their true opinions from all literate Jews when it came to these matters. In any case there are differing views that go in this direction. Rashi states that they stayed at (in the area of) Kadesh Barnea for 19 years. R. Avraham Ibn Ezra believes it was for only a couple of months.

The Daat Zekenim in Numbers 34 explains that they were NOT even in Kadesh Barnea itself (was he anticipating those archaeologists of some 800 hundred years later?). And some sources would deny that the location of the excavations is at the correct location anyway.

My goodness, why did all the rabbis not simply hide these various views to protect the integrity of the Jewish narrative?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I wasn't talking about investigations into settlements. I was referring to the belief about the Muslim sweep and conquest into North Africa after Mohammed. Read the conclusions on the last page.

This is totally out of line, I don't see anything in the conclusions that questions the accepted historical understanding of this period. If there is, what prevents you from copying and pasting it - do you have some Haredi mouse that doesn't copy and paste?

I was sort of kidding that you were lazy but now I am just aghast.

This also has nothing to do with the Exodus, if anything you seem to be now arguing that archaeology is essential for understanding this period, how much more so for the Exodus with no historical accounts?

Adam · 05-21-2013, 02:39 PM

Even the Holman Bible Dictionary admits that excavations at Kadesh have failed to confirm the Exodus accounts, but does not give up hope. However, the more rabid Fundamentalist Christian websites are sure the older (pre-1881) locations for Kadesh are correct, usually meaning Petra (as with Josephus).
Kadesh Barnea

Cheerful Charlie · 05-21-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So what? There's no evidence for the existence of Julius Cesaer, Alexander the Great, Mohammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates. And there is no actual evidence for the Canaanite origin theory of Israelites either. Just hypotheses.

But there is direct evidence. The claims of the OT are that 75 people came to Egypt and 430 years later left 2 1/2 million strong to Palestine. So you would expect they would have been heavily Egyptianized in culture, language, clothing, pottery styles and so on. The Iron age Israelites were not. Their pottery was basically same as their Canaanite forbearers. Their language was a typical West Semitic- Canaanite dialect. They were in fact little different from Canaanites in anything, and lacked all of the Egyptianisms you would expect to have been part of their culture starting as 75 illiterate tribesmen shepherds who were in Egypt for centuries.

Joshua 10 lists the 33 kings Joshua and Moses allegedly defeated. Archaeology demonstrates all the large cities supposedly destroyed by the Israelites were in fact abandoned at the times of Moses/Joshua. Direct evidence all of the Torah is faux history.

All available archaeological evidence shows there is no truth to any of this. Hard evidence, not just theory. The mere theory there is an historical truth in the Torah has been falsified.

Note that later prophets from Jesus to Mohammed have taken these faux histories as true, demonstrating they did know the facts and apparently God didn't tell them any truths in regards to these issues worth paying attention to.

Cheerful Charlie

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-21-2013, 06:33 AM	#123
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Umm, there are cities in North Africa?

05-21-2013, 02:39 PM	#129
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	Even the Holman Bible Dictionary admits that excavations at Kadesh have failed to confirm the Exodus accounts, but does not give up hope. However, the more rabid Fundamentalist Christian websites are sure the older (pre-1881) locations for Kadesh are correct, usually meaning Petra (as with Josephus). Kadesh Barnea

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.