J-D

When I try to think of well-documented examples of the beginnings of religions, the common features I see are an individual preaching a religious message and other people accepting it. I don't know of any well-documented example of a religion starting without those ingredients.

As I mentioned that in the thread on what started Christianity, I'm mentioning it here too.

outhouse

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible.../unearthed.htm


Finkelstein and Silberman state, “The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan—they emerged from within it” (p.118).

Refute this.

Mod comment: outhouse, remember this is not the Debate forum. On this board we should not be thinking in debate terms. "Refute this" is too confrontational.

Please, do not assume that things are as obvious as you think they are. Your POV reflects what you have read and internalized, but many here have read books that you have not or internalized the same data in a different way than you have.

Cite authors by book and page (or at very least the link to the web page and a short quote of the relevant section), but then ask others to explain why they do not agree with your authority. Discussions should be more easy-going. Thanks! :jump:

outhouse

There is no writing from this culture for two hundred years, so there is a absense of evidence for your statement.




The people here were identified by the Merneptah stele as a semi nomodic people called I.si.ri.ar whos crops were wasted making them not a threat to egypt militarily speaking. 1209 ish BC


We dont have any writing from these people until 1000 BC ish and what we do have is a polytheistic people worshipping Canaanite deities


What we see as a first marker of Israelites from Canaanites is a absense of pig bones from 1200 -1000 BC but that is problamatic as it could be a geographical marker more then a cultural one.


Judaism itself doesnt even come close to forming into its own until after 1000 BC as a culture that is different from the Canaanite cullture.


In this early period we see a smaller family of Canaanite deities then the wide range Canaanites used.


This is how the evolution from the Canaanite culture to Israelite culture played out over 200 years and it is the best we have to explain the people that would build Judaism.


The religion itself is nothing more then a evolution of the Canaanite religion

as noted here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...rael_and_Judah

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[71] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[72] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[73] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[74] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[74] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[75] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah, seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[76] After the monarchy emerged at the beginning of Iron Age II, kings promoted their family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court, religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered as it was also for other societies in the ancient Near East.[77]

Davka

I don't have to - even Finkelstein and Silberman were careful to couch their argument in terms which are less than absolute.

Emphasis mine, btw.

Toto

Please do not use this link until you identify the author and the meaning.

It is a set of powerpoint slides from a course.

slide 2 says: What is the textbook? Who is writing this?

outhouse

No one has ever stated only Canaanites made up the Israelite culture.

Many civilizations collapsed at this time, and there was no shortage of semetic nomads either.


What is being debated is what exactly made up the displaced Canaanite people, because there is no real mystery for Israelites origins.

Davka

What is also being debated is what is meant by "Canaanite," as well as "where did the monotheistic aspect of Hebrew religion come from?"

J-D

Since my statements did not refer to any particular culture, plainly you have misunderstood them. In fact, since the statements I made are statements about me (if you read them carefully, you should see this), I don't see what basis you could possibly have for denying them.

Grog

You fail to see the flaw in your own logic, though. Of course, you are free to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you want, sure. For me, it could be true that Adam Weishaupt was really the first president of the United States.

Furthering our understanding of our history is a collective enterprise. It seems strange to me that you want to engage in discussion for proclaiming your own personal beliefs but not engage in give and take.

J-D

I'm happy to engage in give and take. When I get asked questions, I answer them. It would please me if other people repaid the courtesy in kind. But having other people tell me what I think and getting it wrong doesn't fit my definition of 'give and take'.