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03-19-2013, 03:47 PM | #131 |
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Who infected early greek thought with eternal hellfire and dedicate busy demon was the question and still is.
Such hellfire and such fanatic torturing fulltime demons are not to be found in the torah, or in early Greek literature |
03-19-2013, 03:47 PM | #132 |
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no I am very aware you were here before in the golden age of the forum. i was and am quite happy to see you back
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03-19-2013, 03:55 PM | #133 | |
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Are you going to do so or not? Jeffrey |
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03-20-2013, 01:33 AM | #134 | |||||
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The issue raised, relating to the OP suggestion that δαίμων acquired a novel definition under the control of the Christians, (changing the meaning from supernatural entity of neutral connotation, to one exclusively evil), is whether or not the text, claimed to have been originally composed by mid second century CE author Justin Martyr, could be introduced as evidence for forgery, (incorrectly identified by me as "interpolation")? Text identified as that of Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho states: Quote:
(Justin Martyr): For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. LXX: ὅτι πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια ὁ δὲ κύριος τοὺς οὐρανοὺς ἐποίησεν (World English Version) For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but Yahweh made the heavens. Hebrew text: 96:5 KY KL-'aLHY H'yMYM 'aLYLYM VYHVH ShMYM 'yShH. Latin translation: 96:5 omnes enim dii populorum sculptilia Dominus autem caelos fecit Douay Rheims Bible: 96:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils : but the Lord made the heavens. Codex Sinaiticus οτι παντεϲ οι θεοι των εθνων δαιμονια ο δε κϲ τουϲ ουρανουϲ εποιηϲεν Interpretation: 1. The word "Lord", i.e. hebrew adonai, greek kurios, latin dominus, appears in LXX, but not in the Masoretic text, suggesting to me, at least, that in copying documents, the Christians manipulated LXX to conform to New Testament writings. The Hebrew text states YHWH, not adonai. Codex Sinaiticus uses the abbreviation ks, no need to write it out, since everyone knew the meaning by the fourth century. 2, The LXX inserts δαιμόνια, as a false translation of "idols" (Latin "sculptilia"), unless I am wrong, and "idol" had been synonymous with "demon", two thousand years ago. 3. Justin Martyr or the scribe who copied his text a thousand years later, faithfully maintained the forgery, if that is what it had been. |
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03-20-2013, 07:30 AM | #135 | ||||||||||
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But as we've seen, not only is the idea that the word δαίμων was not used before Christianity and by pre/non-Christian Greek speakers with the meaning of "evil spirit", let alone that the word ever had "neutral connotations" (what does that mean??), is absolute horseshit, there's also the fact that the early Church Fathers (who Pete now seems to be claiming in order to make his case were not post Constantinian Eusebian inventions!) used the word with sense other than "evil spirit" (see Lampe, Patristic Greek Lexicon pp. 327-328 -- something you can bet that Pete never consulted, even if, as is doubtful, he is aware of it). Quote:
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Here's the Greek text of the your Justin quote. ὅτι πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια, ὁ δὲ κύριος τοὺς οὐρανοὺς ἐποίησεν How -- and in what way -- is Justin's ὅτι πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια, ὁ δὲ κύριος τοὺς οὐρανοὺς ἐποίησεν a modification of the Greek text of Ps. 96:5? Quote:
was something that only Christians ever did. Do you know for a fact that this is the case? Is there no LXX MS evidence that shows pre Christian (and post Christian) Jewish tendency to do so? What's the evidence in Symmachus? In Aquila? In Philo, in the Pseudepigrapha? In the DSS? Quote:
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Jeffrey |
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03-20-2013, 10:16 AM | #136 | ||
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How someone like you who not only lays claim to knowledge of matters NT, but who poses as someone to whom we should listen when you make assertions about the NT and early Christianity, can not be aware of these things (not to mention steeped in them) is beyond me. Jeffrey |
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03-20-2013, 10:28 AM | #137 | |||
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Really? What is your evidence for this claim? Which political climate was this? Give me dates, please. And where exactly did this occur? Was it a universal phenomenon? Quote:
Jeffrey |
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03-20-2013, 10:35 AM | #138 | |
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Dated primary sources, please! Jeffrey |
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03-20-2013, 10:54 AM | #139 |
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Perhaps it might be understood as a matter of perspective.
From the Torah and Jewish perspective all of the invisible elohim (the אלילים elee'leem 'null-gods') were shadd (devils or demons) in the understood negative connotations. But from the perspective of any other non-Jewish peoples, their invisible elohim or shadd would have been considered at least the equivalent of, if not even superior to that elohim and shad worshiped by the Jews. The names were different, and whom was the favored nation, but not necessarily the basic concepts of where the Deity resided or of what the Deity controlled. (It is necessary to emphasize invisible elohim as the Semitic term 'elohim' is also used in reference to powerful men, even those who were not necessarily conceived of as being actual deities.) These non-Hebrew peoples certainly would not have regarded their own nations invisable Elohim (Deities) as being merely 'idols', 'devils', or 'demons'. The negative and perjorative connotations expressed within the Hebrew (and translated Greek) texts are a result of being viewed from an adversive and very exclusionary Israeli national perspective. That being that Israel was the most favored nation, and its Elohim YHWH reigned supreme over all other elohim. And being politically and religiously exclusionary, there was no access by non-Israeli outsiders to YHWH's favor except by way of submitting to Israeli authority and rule, or through conversion and into total absorbtion into the nation of Israel. One had to either be accepted by, enslaved by, or become a Jew to be regarded as other than outside of 'The Chosen' and The Promises'. A perspective that the peoples of other nations and governments were none to eager to accept. The NT form of religious system was an attempt to rework and remove that Israeli/Jewish restrictiveness. Now (allegedly) anyone at all could become a member of the nation of Israel, an Israelite 'by faith' without need to do what The Torah or the nation of Israel's religious leaders had required. The result of that is the subsequent rise of 40,000 differing luanatic religious cult denominations all doing their own thing, while claiming to be the 'true Israel', and vying for which among them can be the biggest liars in town. |
03-20-2013, 12:19 PM | #140 | ||||||
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Yes, you are correct, I have quite possibly used the word "forgery" without an adequate understanding of its essence. This is my understanding of "forgery": Quote:
In my mind, if not in reality, I picture a scribe, in the middle ages, 11th century, say, or 14th century, working in a monastery in Italy, in possession of an actual manuscript, or copy thereof, CHANGING the text of Justin Martyr, so as to ensure conformance to the current doctrine of the church. To me, that is forgery. I lack proof, of course, since I have no authentic version of Justin Martyr, to employ for comparison, therefore, my allegation is without merit. Quote:
In our own lifetimes, Jeffrey, think of how the word "gay" has changed in meaning. In the 40's, a gay person was someone having a jolly good time, maybe with men, maybe with women, maybe involving sex, maybe not. A child could have been described as "gay", while riding on a merry go round at the local circus or entertainment park. Today, "gay" is a quasi-pejorative term, depending on the proclivities of the recipient audience. Demon is a word which has a UNIVERSAL meaning, quite distinct from the ancient Greek meaning. Quote:
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1. Substitution of Kurios for YHWH; 2. Substitution of "daimon" for the Hebrew "shadd". The LXX is corrupt, in my view. If you wish to convince me to the contrary, it is simple: Quote:
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