Adam

Thanks, Shesh,
For confirming what I said back on Post #96:
Yes, all I have been getting from them is Toto's complaint about the title Gospel According to the Atheists.

HJers, of course, had no need to enter into a defense of my position, as they would not want to be linked with the other eyewitnesses not reconcilable with their position.

Sheshbazzar

What a dumb shit reply. No one here of either persuasion wishes to play your game or become entangled in your idiotic crap.

But if the HJers whom comprise the majority here had seen any value in your claims to have found 'eyewitnesses' credible, they would have fallen all over themselves in their endorsing of a claim that agreed with and supports their HJ position.
That they didn't do so clearly indicates that they are not buying any of your horse shit claims.

Pathetic. You cannot even get committed Bible believing Christians to accept your idiotic crap theory, so you are reduced to trying to peddle your weird wares here.
We damn sure ain't buying it either.

Perhaps you ought to try peddling your crap to the Muslims, ....although they generally prefer to do their 'cooking' with old camel shit, maybe you could interest customers like Mughal the Muslim who is presently busy inventing his own crock of shit Abrahamic religion.
He may well be in the market to buy some of your old horse shit to mix in with his.

Toto

It isn't just the title - it is the idea that atheists should accept the non supernatural parts of the Bible as historical. There's no reason to believe that even these parts of the Bible are true.

Adam

And no reason to believe that they're not true--even by your own principles (Rationalism totally over empiricism). If MJ was already a minority here as Shesh says, it should now be non-existent. But that's human nature--evidence has no place when one's mind is already made up.

stephan huller

Really? You really believe this?

Toto

Yes, there are reasons to believe that they are not true, and not historically accurate. Do you need to review them?

Ancient documents are not entitled to a presumption of historicity, especially ancient anonymous documents written several generations after the events they purport to describe.

Adam

Where we find documents about a person without supernatural accretions, we have reason to regard them as early, not as several generations later. My argument included evidence that up to three documents were written during Jesus's lifetime. Not as proof, of course, but as evidence that must be considered.

Scholars agree that Jesus was crucified. (Which in itself by your standards is not proof. However....) The Passion Narrative source within gJohn tells this without supernatural elements. What's not to believe? It's evidence that Jesus lived. The Discourses and Q can also be isolated apart from supernaturalism. They are also evidence that Jesus lived and that he said radical things that could get him killed. That fits. MJ seems to have no defence except aa's rant that anything from apologetic sources must be excluded from evidence. All MJers are hiding behind aa?

Sheshbazzar

What you claimed to be 'evidence'. There is however, contrary to your stupid claims, NO evidence that they are evidence, or that there ever WERE 'up to three documents', or that any of this Gospel horse shit was 'written during Jebus's lifetime'.

JeSUS is a mythical non-human creature that never existed, you may as well claim that he flew off on PegaSUS

You have NOT provided, and CANNOT provide any evidence that establishes any of your imaginative claims as being historical facts.

Scholars agree that in the STORY Jebus was crucified. The STORY is a religious mythology without substance.

Cut the horse shit. We ain't buying it.

Adam

[My texts here on this thread and on my earlier Early Aramaic Gospels are not limited to "my" Gospel According to the Atheists as we continue to see that no one seems interested in discussing it. Therefore I have used my own best judgment as to what I regard as eyewitness testimony.]
(Continued from Post #87; Selection #3.)
For this second pass through of Gospel Eyewitnesses not already listed in Early Aramaic Gospels, the Lucan selections from Special Luke shown bracketed likely were in Aramaic as well, but the Lucan passages from q2 (in regular type) were already in Greek. Ellipses represent filler material. The Marcan passages are from an Ur-Marcus already in Greek before it was taken into Mark or Luke. Similarly, the first 12 chapters here from John are from the Signs Source (by Andrew) already in Greek probably from the first. John 13 and thereafter here I attribute to the Apostle John himself. Certain uniquely Matthean sections are included where the content is paralleled in the Gospel of Thomas or even where the Jesus Seminar affirmed them as from Jesus.

Luke 8:
[1 Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Mag'dalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, 3 and Joan'na, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.]

Mark 5:
1 They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Ger'asenes. 2 And when he had come out of the boat, there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who lived among the tombs; and no one could bind him any more, even with a chain; 4 for he had often been bound with fetters and chains, but the chains he wrenched apart, and the fetters he broke in pieces; and no one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out, and bruising himself with stones. 6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped him; 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me." 8 For he had said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion; for we are many." 10 And he begged him eagerly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now a great herd of swine was feeding there on the hillside; 12 and they begged him, "Send us to the swine, let us enter them." 13 So he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea. 14 The herdsmen fled, and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had had the legion; and they were afraid. 16 And those who had seen it told what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine. 17 And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their neighborhood. 18 And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. 19 But he refused, and said to him, "Go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decap'olis how much Jesus had done for him; and all men marveled.

21 And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him; and he was beside the sea. 22 Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet, 23 and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live." 24 And he went with him. And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well." 29 And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?" 31 And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, 'Who touched me?'" 32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth. 34 And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease." 35 While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?" 36 But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe." 37 And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, he saw a tumult, and people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping." 40 And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." 42 And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement. 43 And he strictly charged them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.

Mark 8:
27 And Jesus went on with his disciples, to the villages of Caesare'a Philip'pi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that I am?" 28 And they told him, "John the Baptist; and others say, Eli'jah; and others one of the prophets." 29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ." 30 And he charged them to tell no one about him.

31* And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33* But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men." 34* And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35* For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 For what can a man give in return for his life? 38* For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Mark 9
1 And he said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with* power.’
2 Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, 3 and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one* on earth could bleach them. 4 And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Luke 9:
32 Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep, but they woke up and saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As these were leaving (NJB)
Mark 9:
5 Then Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings,* one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ 6 He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. 7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved;* listen to him!’ 8 Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus.

30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. And he would not have any one know it; 31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, "The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise." 32 But they did not understand the saying, and they were afraid to ask him 38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. 42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

John 9:
S 1 And passing by he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this one or his parents, that he was born blind?...
6 (After) saying these things, he spat on the ground and made clay from the spittle and spread clay on his eyes, 7 and he said to him, “Go, bathe in the pool of Siloam”…Then he went away and bathed and came (back) seeing. …
13 They lead him to the Pharisees, the one once blind. 14 And it was the Sabbath on the day Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15…Then the Pharisees asked him how he regained sight. And he said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I bathed, and I see.” 16 Then some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God…. Others were saying, “How is a man, a sinner, able to do such signs?” And there was a schism among them. 17 Then they say… to the blind (man), “What do you say about him, since he opened your eyes?” And the (man) said that “he is a prophet.”

Luke 9:
[51 When the days drew near for him to be received up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him; 53 but the people would not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, "Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?" 55 But he turned and rebuked them. 56 And they went on to another village.]

57* As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head." 59 To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father." 60 But he said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
[61 Another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home." 62 Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

Luke 10:
[1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.]
2* And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. 3* Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. 4 Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. 5* Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. 7* And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. 8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9 heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.' 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11* 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' 12* I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13* "Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Beth-saida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Caperna-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. 16* "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

[17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" 18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.]

21* * In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. * 22* All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." 23* Then turning to the disciples he said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

[25* * And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" 27* And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 28* And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."]

[29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30 Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was; and when he saw him, he had compassion, 34 and went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; then he set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.' 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" 37 He said, "The one who showed mercy on him." And Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."]

[38 Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me." 41 But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her."]

Sheshbazzar

Nothing you have edited, copied, and pasted here is any evidence for any of the imaginative claims you are making.
There are no such things as 'Gospel Eyewitness Sources',

You must be really desperate for attention, to feel a need to continue spamming an atheist forum in this manner.
What happend? Did every church finally kick you out?
Or did they have to send you on a 'mission' just to get rid of you before someone in the congregation strangled you?

If it possessed any real value you would be arguing its merits to an audience of accredited textual scholars in some other forum or venue,
Where they could be the ones laughing their asses off at your stupidity,
and not wasting your time in spamming atheists who have demonstrated that no matter how much of this thinly disguised stinking religious proselytizing horse shit you may dump in their yard, they are NOT going to buy it.