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outhouse · 06-30-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

FWIW irenaeus seems to think there is an Aramaic (Hebrew) basis to the gospel

There probably is, but it could only represent the multi cultural nature of Hellenistic Judaism.

It surely would give any credibility to a man from Galilee as a teacher.

spin · 06-30-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It's guesswork based on poor assumptions, Andrew. Few in their right minds would deny a Semitic connection to the gospels, but what that connection is hasn't been ascertained with any seriousness. While there is an explainable Semitic linguistic content--the religion is dependent on Semitic sources for the basic theological elements--, there is an unexplainable Greco-Latin content for a Jesus speaking Aramaic or Hebrew.

I have pointed to a writer using Greek in Rome as a means of explaining the linguistics seen in Mark. There is nothing that requires an Aramaic source for any of the traditions, except in the Jewish origins of theological notions. The narratives and expression point away from a Semitic origin with the odd confusion provided by a little trivial Aramaic, along the lines of "little girl, get up" or the apparently anachronous "rabbi".

If Jesus existed, one cannot use the gospels to glean the language he may have spoken. For all we know a real Jesus could have had a Greek name, given that a third of the population spoke Greek and the name Jesus in Greek had been around for a couple of centuries.

There are quite a few layers of conjecture in this Jesus spoke Aramaic theory.

Hi Spin

Just to clarify.

Do you agree that IF there was a historical Jesus, a Galilean peasant who was killed by the authorities at Jerusalem, then this Jesus would normally have taught in Aramaic (or posibly Hebrew) ?

If a third of the funerary inscriptions from what is now Israel were in Greek, why do you exclude Greek? And why do you assume this Jesus would have been a peasant? If Harvey Falk was right in the title of his book, "Jesus, the Pharisee", that would mean that Jesus was not a peasant.

Quote:

For the purpose of this thread I was assuming that there was a historical Jesus and considering the relation between Jesus' actual teaching and what is recorded in the Gospels.

I can accept for argument's sake the proposition that Jesus was real, but that doesn't help you glean the language he might have spoken. Neither do the gospels.

Quote:

Although Jesus may have been able to speak Greek, using Aramaic would have made for better communication with his fellow Jews.

How do you figure that, when Aramaic was also spoken by about 1/3 of the population?

I still think there are more assumptions than facts available here.

stephan huller · 06-30-2013, 11:56 AM

At the very least someone or a group of someones wanted Jesus, the Church and the gospel to be rooted in "Hebrew" in the 2nd century. I can't figure out their motivation unless it was to counter Marcionitism (un-Jewishness however defined)

James The Least · 06-30-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

At the very least someone or a group of someones wanted Jesus, the Church and the gospel to be rooted in "Hebrew" in the 2nd century. I can't figure out their motivation unless it was to counter Marcionitism (un-Jewishness however defined)

Motivation? Authenticity. If they had tried to sell it as a new religion by a bunch of Romans, nobody would have joined. Instead they very cleverly packaged it as an ancient religion whose pure prophets had been interpreted in error and corrupted by "the Jews" for hundreds of years. According to them, it took the Gentiles to finally figure out the correct interpretation, with the help of the magic pneuma of recently deceased Lord Jesus.

Caucasians have an inherent psychological need to feel superior to non-Caucasians. But they also realize that authenticity is important. Caucasians glommed onto Judaism when their own religions had become stale. But they certainly weren't going to be subservient to some (in their eyes) inferior race of Orientals. Christianity was invented out of this racial/ethnic tension and anxiety over authenticity.

This all happened long before anybody had heard of Marcion.

And then the whole thing repeated itself with Manichaeism and Islam.

Tenorikuma · 06-30-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Motivation? Authenticity.

Excellent point. Didn't oriental mystery religions thrive during this time precisely because they had exotic origins? Mithraism and its alleged Persian origins, for example.

Or consider the cachet that Buddhism has had in the West since the 1960s or so… not because of its superiority to Western religions, but because of its foreignness and exoticness (all useful in providing the sense of wonder that people want from their religion).

The reality, of course, is that most Westerners who dabble in Buddhism never actually understand it, just like most Greco-Roman Christians appear to have completely misunderstood Judaism and the Old Testament.

aa5874 · 06-30-2013, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Motivation? Authenticity. If they had tried to sell it as a new religion by a bunch of Romans, nobody would have joined. Instead they very cleverly packaged it as an ancient religion whose pure prophets had been interpreted in error and corrupted by "the Jews" for hundreds of years. According to them, it took the Gentiles to finally figure out the correct interpretation, with the help of the magic pneuma of recently deceased Lord Jesus.

Caucasians have an inherent psychological need to feel superior to non-Caucasians. But they also realize that authenticity is important. Caucasians glommed onto Judaism when their own religions had become stale. But they certainly weren't going to be subservient to some (in their eyes) inferior race of Orientals. Christianity was invented out of this racial/ethnic tension and anxiety over authenticity.

This all happened long before anybody had heard of Marcion.

And then the whole thing repeated itself with Manichaeism and Islam.

Where do you get your stories from? We have virtually nothing about Christians of the Jesus cult LONG before Marcion. How did you hear about things that nobody heard or seen??

Christians of the Jesus cult were Hated and being ABUSED in the 2nd century and were a laughing stock to the Marcionites.

The story of the Jesus by the cult was regarded as nonsense in antiquity.

It would appear that by merely calling oneself a Christian that one was punished.

There was hardly anything clever about Christianity except that they were operating in SECRET.

Against Celsus 1

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The first point which Celsus brings forward, in his desire to throw discredit upon Christianity, is, that the Christians entered into secret associations with each other contrary to law, saying, that “of associations some are public, and that these are in accordance with the laws; others, again, secret, and maintained in violation of the laws.”.........

Justin's First Apology

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........ I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them....

Tertullian's Ad Nationes

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Your sentences, however, import only that one has confessed himself a Christian. No name of a crime stands against us, but only the crime of a name. Now this in very deed is neither more nor less than the entire odium which is felt against us. The name is the cause...

Justin's First Apology

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And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us...

There was NOTHING clever about Christianity---They worshiped a crucified criminal as a God and claimed he was fathered by a Holy Ghost.

James The Least · 07-01-2013, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Quote:

Motivation? Authenticity.

Excellent point. Didn't oriental mystery religions thrive during this time precisely because they had exotic origins? Mithraism and its alleged Persian origins, for example.

Or consider the cachet that Buddhism has had in the West since the 1960s or so… not because of its superiority to Western religions, but because of its foreignness and exoticness (all useful in providing the sense of wonder that people want from their religion).

The reality, of course, is that most Westerners who dabble in Buddhism never actually understand it, just like most Greco-Roman Christians appear to have completely misunderstood Judaism and the Old Testament.

They interpret Buddhism on a level that's compatible with a Western lifestyle.
Just like the Romans, who kept the parts of Judaism they liked and threw out the rest to form Christianity. There's nothing new under the sun.

Grog · 07-01-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Quote:

Motivation? Authenticity.

Excellent point. Didn't oriental mystery religions thrive during this time precisely because they had exotic origins? Mithraism and its alleged Persian origins, for example.

Or consider the cachet that Buddhism has had in the West since the 1960s or so… not because of its superiority to Western religions, but because of its foreignness and exoticness (all useful in providing the sense of wonder that people want from their religion).

The reality, of course, is that most Westerners who dabble in Buddhism never actually understand it, just like most Greco-Roman Christians appear to have completely misunderstood Judaism and the Old Testament.

This is actually the point I attempted to make in the christian origins thread. It's also my point regarding New Age and Native American religion.

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06-30-2013, 11:56 AM	#23
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	At the very least someone or a group of someones wanted Jesus, the Church and the gospel to be rooted in "Hebrew" in the 2nd century. I can't figure out their motivation unless it was to counter Marcionitism (un-Jewishness however defined)

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