Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 11:34 PM

Again I will try yet again. When the Marcionite idea of ΙΣ = ish milechamah is referenced in the Church Fathers it is done alongside the 'stranger' concept - viz Ephrem:

Quote:

And if they say that the Maker did not perceive the Stranger, it is unlikely. For how did he not perceive him when he was his neighbour? And if they say that he was far from him, infinitely far, if it was a mountain immeasurable and an endless path, and a vast extent without any limit, then how was that Stranger able to proceed and come down the immeasurable mountain, and (through) a dead region in which there was no living air, and (across) a bitter waste which nothing had ever crossed? And if they make the improbable statement that "the Stranger like a man of war was able to come," well if he came as a man of war-[though he did not come), (take the case of) those weak Souls whom he brought up hence, how were these sickly ones able to travel through all that region which God their Maker and Creator was not able to traverse, as they say?

In other words, his 'strangeness' is tied to the ish concept. Is that because the ish was already established as a 'stranger' in the Pentateuch. I keep trying.

stephan huller · 07-05-2013, 11:39 PM

I will try yet again. The Father is this perfect being in outer space. The later orthodox said that he and his Son were absolutely one and the same. Justin, Eusebius, Novatian, Tertullian et al say that the Son was the איש from the Pentateuch. He is described as meeting the Patriarchs etc. This being is not the 'Jewish god.' So what sort of relationship did he have with the traditional 'god of the Jews'? Was there an absolute monarchy in the heavenly household or did the Marcionites think that the איש acted somewhat autonomously from the Creator God? This is the question. Was he on earth 'in secret.' Notice that God disappears for much of the narrative involving Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his sons. Was איש a hidden power?

Grog · 07-06-2013, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Well obviously I am failing then. I don't know what to say. If I oversimplify the understanding someone will criticize me for being too general of vague. I am just really tired. Another thought though.

Quote:

No man, says the Samaritan, can please God unless he believes with all his heart and soul in Moses the servant and Man of God. We use the capital 'M' always in this connection because of the unique Samaritan stress on the Hebrew phrase on the Hebrew phrase, ish ha-elohim, 'the man of God' [John MacDonald, Theology of the Samaritans p. 150]

Do you understand that the Samaritans (like everyone else) thinks Moses was God MShH = ShMH the Name (HShM in Judaism)? He's the man of God because he met the איש. Just look at Jacob. He meets the איש and then takes on his name somehow (= Israel). Joseph too meets the איש and then curiously he too appears as a stranger to his brothers just like the איש. There is something here about a hidden cosmic איש who visits mankind in secret. Sort of like the guy called Jesus (but written ΙΣ in the earliest manuscripts).

I was half joking, but this does help actually.

Clivedurdle · 07-06-2013, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Who Was the Angel Who Wrestled with Jacob?
The Torah and Bible story of the prophet Jacob wrestling with a man of supernatural strength has captured readers' attention for many centuries. Who is the mysterious man who struggles with Jacob all night and finally blesses him?

Some believe that archangel Phanuel is the man the passage describes, but other scholars say that the man is actually the Angel of the Lord, a manifestation of God Himself before his incarnation later in history.

http://angels.about.com/od/AngelsRel...-The-Bible.htm

Clivedurdle · 07-06-2013, 01:58 AM

Quote:

There is something here about a hidden cosmic איש who visits mankind in secret.

I know I was brought up in a weird pentecostal chapel, but I thought that was basic xian theology!

arnoldo · 07-06-2013, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Even Detering likes my solution better - Proteus = Polycarp

Was Polycarp really a heretic from the Marcionite establishment? Considering this hypothesis is based in part on Pionus's Life of Polycarp (see below). .

Quote:

While Detering seems to argue that “the stranger” was a specifically Marcionite term it would have been instructive for him to read in Pionus’Life of Polycarp*more carefully.[7]* It is quite clear from that tradition that not only was Polycarp quite fond of referring to himself with this title but even more significantly “polycarpou” or “fruitful one” itself might well have been only one of many titles that this “stranger” applied to himself.
http://www.radikalkritik.de/Huller_Peregrin.htm

. . . the possibility that it is a 4th century forgery should be taken into consideration.

Quote:

Since the colophon to the Martrydom also is signed by Pionius, who intends to explain how he obtained it, and seems to be in the same style as this text, the author is given this name. However this is not the Pionius who was martyred in the Decian persecution, since the work shows no knowledge of the most important facts about Polycarp; that he was the disciple of John and a quartodeciman. The work is therefore a piece of fiction, written late and probably belonging to the latter half of the 4th century, when so many "pious" legends were invented as entertainment for the newly Christianised society.* The writer shows some knowledge of the locality around Smyrna, but perhaps not enough for a native of that city, who might be expected to know of Polycarp's links with St. John. He probably lived in the province and had a casual knowledge of the city. The text is entirely fictional and tells us nothing about Polycarp.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pi...p_00_intro.htm

stephan huller · 07-06-2013, 07:34 AM

Well, but the strength of the parallel is the material which connects the Letters of Ignatius to Polycarp via their echo in the Passing of Peregrinus. It's hard to get around that stuff. Also I didn't include the fragments of another Martyrdom of Polycarp. If I finish the current article I will polish up that old one too.

Davka · 07-06-2013, 08:27 AM

In English, if I write "a man walked into the room and approached Joe," the man is assumed to be a stranger unless and until he is identified. Is this not enough to establish that the man is a stranger? Do we really need to examine any further definition of "strangeness"?

Furthermore, does the English-language connection between "stranger" (unknown individual) and "strange" (weird, abnormal, bizarre) actually apply to Biblical Hebrew or Aramaic?

Davka · 07-06-2013, 08:44 AM

Probably the oddest passage is in Genesis 18, where three men (anashim, ish pl.) come to Abraham's tent and are treated like visiting royalty. And then suddenly the text takes a hard turn:

Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he (Abraham) said, “There, in the tent.” He (one of the men?) said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” And YHWH said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ Is anything too difficult for YHWH? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. YHWH said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” And YHWH said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before YHWH.

This is a serious WTF? passage. Abraham is talking to three men, and YHWH butts in and starts talking - and the three men don't react in any way. One might think that one of the men is YHWH, but then the men walk off, and YHWH remains.

I have read and heard numerous attempted explanations of this passage, but none of them satisfy.

stephan huller · 07-06-2013, 09:03 AM

Yes the material in Genesis 18 and Genesis 32 and their reference to 'man' and 'men' have been linked by Esther J Hamori (a very attractive woman I might add) in her book (based on her doctoral thesis) When Gods Were Men (or via: amazon.co.uk).

07-06-2013, 08:44 AM	#69
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Probably the oddest passage is in Genesis 18, where three men (anashim, ish pl.) come to Abraham's tent and are treated like visiting royalty. And then suddenly the text takes a hard turn: Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he (Abraham) said, “There, in the tent.” He (one of the men?) said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” And YHWH* said to Abraham,* “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ Is anything too difficult for YHWH? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. YHWH said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” And YHWH said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before YHWH. This is a serious WTF? passage. Abraham is talking to three men, and YHWH butts in and starts talking - and the three men don't react in any way. One might think that one of the men is YHWH, but then the men walk off, and YHWH remains. I have read and heard numerous attempted explanations of this passage, but none of them satisfy.

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07-05-2013, 11:39 PM	#62
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I will try yet again. The Father is this perfect being in outer space. The later orthodox said that he and his Son were absolutely one and the same. Justin, Eusebius, Novatian, Tertullian et al say that the Son was the איש from the Pentateuch. He is described as meeting the Patriarchs etc. This being is not the 'Jewish god.' So what sort of relationship did he have with the traditional 'god of the Jews'? Was there an absolute monarchy in the heavenly household or did the Marcionites think that the איש acted somewhat autonomously from the Creator God? This is the question. Was he on earth 'in secret.' Notice that God disappears for much of the narrative involving Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his sons. Was איש a hidden power?

07-06-2013, 07:34 AM	#67
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Well, but the strength of the parallel is the material which connects the Letters of Ignatius to Polycarp via their echo in the Passing of Peregrinus. It's hard to get around that stuff. Also I didn't include the fragments of another Martyrdom of Polycarp. If I finish the current article I will polish up that old one too.

07-06-2013, 08:27 AM	#68
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	In English, if I write "a man walked into the room and approached Joe," the man is assumed to be a stranger unless and until he is identified. Is this not enough to establish that the man is a stranger? Do we really need to examine any further definition of "strangeness"? Furthermore, does the English-language connection between "stranger" (unknown individual) and "strange" (weird, abnormal, bizarre) actually apply to Biblical Hebrew or Aramaic?

07-06-2013, 09:03 AM	#70
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes the material in Genesis 18 and Genesis 32 and their reference to 'man' and 'men' have been linked by Esther J Hamori (a very attractive woman I might add) in her book (based on her doctoral thesis) When Gods Were Men (or via: amazon.co.uk).

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