Roger Pearse

Thank you - I had not followed that.

There seems to be some question as to what the Latin text of 6-11 actually is, from Schneemelcher, aside from the issue of whether that text had the long version of 11.

RParvus

Hi Andrew,

I’m confused. The assumption is that the L1 version (to use R. H. Charles’ designations) had the long form of chapter 11. Is Norelli questioning that? Or is he is merely arguing that the Cathar text cannot belong to L1, and therefore it is probably an earlier form of L2? If the latter, what are his arguments? In other words, why does he think the Cathars used the 6-11 version (L2), not the 1-11 version (L1)?

Roger

andrewcriddle

Hi Roger

Norelli is arguing that the Cathar text cannot belong to L1, and therefore it is probably an earlier form of L2.

It is generally accepted that the Cathard knew L2 as the Vision of Isaiah. (See Cathar-Vision-Isaiah , Heresy and Literacy )

There is no evidence that they knew L1 which by the middle ages probably survived only in Ethiopia.


Andrew Criddle

Stuart

One comment, which I cannot back up at the moment because I lent the book I need to do so to my brother:

The Cathars supposedly used Greek texts while the Catholics used Latin. It would seem to me quite possible that the original could have been Latin, then translated into Greek and extended by the Bogamils, who were from the Greek Byzantine empire. That the Slavic is close to the Latin rather than the Greek (the Slavs are to the East not the west) perhaps suggests that direction of translation. This is of course against the normative Greek to Latin direction.

BTW, your translation seems fine, except "auditum fuit et narratum per multos" probably should be "it was heard and told by (or 'through') many" rather than "ratified."

That Jesus is "quod propheta" has a 4th century Ebionite ring to it. It's easy to see where Islam picked it up from.

andrewcriddle

It would have been clearer and more accurate if I had said: There is no evidence that they [the Cathars] knew L1 [the early Latin translation of the long version of Ascension of Isaiah]. L1 survives only in early medieval fragments and was apparently unknown in the high middle ages. By this time the long version had been forgotten except in Ethiopia.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

A piece of evidence that the Cathars used the Vision of Isaiah (chapters 6-11) rather than the full Ascension of Isaiah (chapters 1-11)

Ascension of Isaiah chapter 8 verses 6-9 reads
The equivalent in Vision of Isaiah reads Ascension has where dwelleth He that is not named and the Elect One, whose name has not been made known, and none of the heavens can learn His name.


Vision has the simpler where dwells the mighty Son of God.

The Cathars read Son of God rather than He that is not named and the Elect one.

See Heresy and Literacy

Andrew Criddle