Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-21-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

When I pointed out that the “words of the Lord” by Paul in his epistles are regarded by a major portion of mainstream scholarship as communications he believes he has received from Christ in heaven,

Is this really so with respect at least to 1 Cor 11:23? A major portion of the scholars who have commented on this text do indeed believe that "from the Lord" here means "from the heavenly Christ"?

Here's a pretty compete list of commentaries on 1 Corinthians followed by a fairly complete bibliography on the passage in which 1 Cor. 11:23 appears.

I haven't had time to have a look at all of the commentaries and the articles I list. But you obviously have -- otherwise you wouldn't be able to make the claim you do that a major portion of scholarship supports the idea that "from the lord" in 1 Cor 11:23 means "from the heavenly Christ". So would you do me and everyone else here the favour of showing you are indeed correct in your claim by pointing out in which of these commentaries and articles we can find their authors saying what you have noted they say?

With thanks in advance,

Jeffrey

Allo, E.-B., Saint Paul. Première Épitre aux Corinthiens (Paris: Gabalda, 2d ed. 1956 [1st ed. 1934]).

Bachmann, P., Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament (Leipzig: Deichert, 1905 4th ed. with additions by E. Stauffer, 1936).

Barrett, C. K., A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians (London: Black, 1968, 2d ed. 1971).

Barth, K., The Resurrection of the Dead (Eng. trans., London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1933).

Blomberg, C. L., 1 Corinthians, NIVAC (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994).

Bruce, F. F., 1 and 2 Corinthians, NCBC (London: Oliphants, 1971).

Calvin, John, The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (Eng. trans., Edinburgh: Oliver & Boyd and St. Andrew, 1960).

Chafin, K. L., 1, 2 Corinthians, ComC 7 (Waco, Tex.: Word, 1985).

Collins, R. F., First Corinthians, SacPag 7 (Collegeville, Minn: Glazier/Liturgical Press, 1999).

Conzelmann, H., 1 Corinthians: A Commentary Hermeneia (Eng. trans., Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1975).

Craig, C. T., “The First Epistle to the Corinthians,” in IB, 10 (New York and Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1953), 3–262.

Deluz, G., A Companion to 1 Corinthians (Eng. trans., London: Darton, Longman & Todd, 1963).Edwards, T. C., A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians (London: Hodder & Stoughton [Greek text], 2d ed. 1885).

Ellingworth, P., and H. A. Hatton, Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians, UBS Handbook (New York: United Bible Societies, 1994).

Erasmus Desiderius, Epistola Pauli ad Corinthios prima, in Opera Omnia, 6 (ed. J. Leclerc; Leiden, 1705), 661–747.

Evans, E., The Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, Clarendon Bible (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1930).

Fascher, E., Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther, 1: Einführung und Auslegung der Kap 1–7, HTKNT 7:1 (Berlin: Evangelische Verlagsanstalt, 1975; 3d ed. 1984).

*Fee, G. D., The First Epistle to the Corinthians, NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987).

Findlay, G. G., “St Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians,” in W. R. Nicoll (ed.), The Expositor’s Greek Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans [London, 1900], 1961).

Godet, F., Commentary on St Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians (Eng. trans., 2 vols., Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1886).

Goudge, H. L., The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Westminster Commentaries (London: Methuen, 1903, 4th ed. 1915).

Grosheide, F. W., Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, NICNT and New London Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans and London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1953, 2d ed. 1954).

Hargreaves, J., A Guide to 1 Corinthians (London: SPCK, 1978).

Harris, W. B., The First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians (Serampore and Bangalore: Christian Literature Society, 1958).

Harrisville, R. A., 1 Corinthians, ACNT (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1987).

Hays, R. B., First Corinthians, Interpretation (Louisville: Knox, 1997).

Heinrici, C. F. G., Das erste Sendschreiben des Apostel Paulus an die Korinther (Berlin: Hertz, 1880); also 8th ed., Der erste Brief an die Korinther (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1896).

Héring, J., The First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians (Eng. trans., London: Epworth Press, 1962).

Hodge, C., The First Epistle to the Corinthians (London: Banner of Truth, rpt. 1958).

Horsley, R. A., 1 Corinthians (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1998).

Kistemaker, S. J., 1 Corinthians (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1993).

Klauck, H.-J., 1 Korintherbrief, Die Neue Echter Bibel (Würzburg: Echter Verlag, 1984).

Kling, C. F., “The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians,” in J. P. Lange (ed.), Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Eng. trans., Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1960 [German 1861]), 5–864.

Lang, F., Die Briefe an die Korinther, NTD 7 (Göttingen and Zürich: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1994), 1–250 (on 1 Corinthians).

Lias, J. J., The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Cambridge Greek Testament, earlier series (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1892) (Greek text).

Lietzmann, H. (with W. G. Kümmel), An die Korinther 1/2, HNT 9 (Tübingen: Mohr, 4th ed. 1949), 1–96 (Lietzmann on 1 Corinthians) and 165–96 (Kümmel’s supplement on 1 Corinthians).

Lightfoot, J. B., Notes on the Epistles of St Paul (London: Macmillan, 1895), 139–235 (on 1 Corinthians 1–7 only, Greek text).

MacRory, J., The Epistles of St Paul to the Corinthians (Dublin: Gill, 1915).

Mare, W. H., “1 Corinthians,” in F. E. Gaebelein (ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1976), 173–297.

Melanchthon, P., “Annotationes in epistulas Pauli ad Corinthios,” in Melanchthons Werke in Auswahl (Gütersloh: Mohn, 1963), 4:16–84.

*Merklein, H., Der erste Brief an die Korinther Kapitel 1–4, Ökumenischer Taschenbuchkommentar zum Neuen Testament (Gütersloh: Gütersloher Verlagshaus and Mohn, and Würzburg: Echter Verlag, 1992).

Meyer, H. A. W., Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Epistles to the Corinthians (Eng. trans., 2 vols., Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1892 [vol. 1 and vol. 2, 1–124 on 1 Corinthians]).

Moffatt, J., The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, Moffatt New Testament Commentary (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1938).

Morris, L., The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, TNTC (London: Tyndale Press, 1958).

Murphy-O’Connor, J., 1 Corinthians, New Testament Message 10 (Wilmington: Glazier, 1979); and 1 Corinthians, People’s Bible Commentary (Oxford: Bible Reading Fellowship, 1997).

Orr, W. F., and J. A. Walther, 1 Corinthians, AB 32 (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1976).

Ortkemper, F. J., 1 Korintherbrief (Stuttgart: Verlag Katholisches Bibelwerk, 1993).

Osty, C. E., Les Épitres de Saint Paul aux Corinthiens (Paris: Les Éditions du Cerf, 4th ed. 1964), 9–71 (on 1 Corinthians).

Parry, R. St. John, The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, Cambridge Greek Testament (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1937).

Robertson, A. T., and A. Plummer, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of St Paul to the Corinthians, ICC (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 2d ed. 1914 [Greek text]).

Robertson, A. T., Word Pictures in the NT (6 vols.), 4: The Epistles of Paul (Greek text) (New York: R. Smith, 1931), 68–207.

Robertson, E. H., Corinthians One and Two (London: Collins-Fontana, 1973), 10–101.

Ruef, J., Paul’s First Letter to Corinth, Pelican New Testament Commentaries (Harmondsworth and Baltimore: Penguin, 1971).

Schlatter, A., Paulus, der Bote Jesus. Eine Deutung seiner Briefe an die Korinther (Stuttgart: Calwer, 4th ed. 1969 [1934]); also Die Korintherbriefe Ausgelegt für Bibelleser (Stuttgart: Calwer, 1962, 1984).

Schrage, W., Der erste Brief an die Korinther, EKKNT 7/1–3 (Neukirchen-Vluyn: Neukirchener Verlag, and Zürich and Düsseldorf: Benziger Verlag, 3 vols. to date, 1991 [on 1:1–6:11]; 1995 [6:12–11:16]; and 1999 [11:17–14:40]).

Senft, C., La Première Épitre de Saint Paul aux Corinthiens, Commentaire du Nouveau Testament (Geneva: Labor et Fides, 2d rev. ed. 1990 [1979]).

Simon, W. G. H., The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Torch Bible Commentary (London: SCM, 1959).

Snyder, G. F., First Corinthians: A Faith Community Commentary (Macon, Ga.: Mercer University Press, 1992).

Strobel, A., Der erste Brief an die Korinther, Zürcher Bibelkommentare (Zürich: Theologischer Verlag, 1989).

Talbert, C. H., Reading Corinthians: A Literary-Theological Commentary on 1 and 2 Corinthians (New York: Crossroad, 1992).

Thrall, M. E., The First and Second Letters of Paul to the Corinthians (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1965), 1–118.

Walter, E., The First Epistle to the Corinthians, New Testament for Spiritual Reading (Eng. trans., London: Sheed and Ward, 1971).

Watson, N., The First Epistle to the Corinthians (London: Epworth Press, 1992).

*Weiss, J., Der erste Korintherbrief (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2d rev. ed. 1910) (rpt. 1977).

Wendland, H.-D., Die Briefe an die Korinther, NTD 7 (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1968 [1936])

*Wolff, C., Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther, THKNT 7 (Leipzig: Evangelische Verlagsanstalt, 1996).

Bibliography on 11:17–34. See also other works listed under 10:14–22.

Aitken, Ellen B., “Τὰ δρώμενα καὶ τὰ λεγόμενα: The Eucharistic Memory of Jesus’ Words in First Corinthians,” HTR 90 (1997): 359–70.

Blue, B. B., “The House Church at Corinth and the Lord’s Supper: Famine, Food Supply and the Present Distress,” Criswell Theological Review 5 (1991): 221–39.

Bornkamm, G., Lord’s Supper and Church in Paul,” in Bornkamm, Early Christian Experience (Eng. trans., London: SCM, 1969), 123–60.

Campbell, R. A., “Does Paul Acquiesce in Divisions at the Lord’s Supper?” NTS 33 (1991): 61–70.

Casey, P. M., “The Original Aramaic Form of Jesus’ Interpretation of the Cup,” JTS 41 (1990): 1–12.

Chenderlin, F., “Do This as My Memorial”: The Semantic and Conceptual Background and Value of Anamnesis in 1 Cor 11:24–25, AnBib 99 (Rome: Biblical Pontifical Institute Press, 1982).

Clancy, R. A. D., “The OT Roots of Remembrance in the Lord’s Supper,” Concordia Journal 19 (1993): 35–50.

Coady, C. A. J., Testimony: A Philosophical Study (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992).

Cullmann, O., Early Christian Worship (Eng. trans., London: SCM, 1953), 26–33.

———, La Tradition. Problème exégétique, historique et théologique, Cahiers théologiques 33 (Paris: Delachaux & Niestlé, 1953), 29–40.

———, and F. J. Leenhardt, Essays on the Lord’s Supper (Eng. trans., London: Lutterworth, 1958).

Dunn, J. D. G., “The Lord’s Supper,” in Dunn, The Theology of Paul the Apostle (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark and Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), 599–624.

Eriksson, A., Traditions as Rhetorical Proof: Pauline Argumentation in 1 Corinthians, ConBNT 29 (Stockholm: Almqvist & Wiksell, 1998), 64–86, 100–106, and 174–96.

Garlatti, G. J., “Las eucharistia como memoria y proclamación de la muerte del Señor,” RevistB 46 (1984): 321–41.

Gloer, W. H., “Homologies and Hymns in the NT: Form, Content and Criteria for Identification,” Perspectives in Religious Studies 11 (1984): 115–32.

Gregg, D. W. A., “Hebraic Antecedents to the Eucharistic Anamnesis Formula,” TynBul 30 (1979): 165–68.

Gundry-Volf, J., Paul and Perseverance, WUNT 2:37 (Tübingen: Mohr, 1990), 99–113.

Higgins, A. J. B., The Lord’s Supper in the NT (London: SCM, 1952), 13–23 and 64–73, esp. 70–73.

Hofius, O., “Herrenmahl und Herrenmahlsparadosis. Erwägungen zu 1 Kor 11:23b–25,” ZTK 85 (1988): 371–408; Eng. trans., “The Lord’s Supper and the Lord’s Supper Tradition: Reflections on 1 Cor 11:23b–25,” in B. Meyer (ed.) One Loaf, One Cup: Ecumenical Studies of 1 Cor 11 and Other Eucharistic Texts (Macon, Ga.: Mercer University Press, 1993), 75–115.

———, “Τὸ σῶμα τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, 1 Kor 11:24,” ZNW 80 (1989): 80–88.

Horrell, D., “The Lord’s Supper at Corinth and in the Church Today,” Theol 98 (1995): 196–202.

Jeremias, J., The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (Eng. trans., London: SCM, 3d ed. 1966).

———, “ ‘This Is My Body,’ ” ExpTim 83 (1972): 196–203.

Karrer, J., “Der kelch des neuen Bundes,” BZ 34 (1990): 198–221.

Käsemann, E., “The Pauline Doctrine of the Lord’s Supper,” in Käsemann, Essays on NT Themes (Eng. trans., London: SCM, 1964), 108–35.

Klauck, H.-J., “Eucharist and Church Community in Paul,” Theology Digest 35 (1988): 19–24.

Lampe, P., “The Eucharist: Identifying with Christ on the Cross,” Int 48 (1994), 36–49.

———, “Das Korinthische Herrenmahl im Schnittpunkt hellenistisch-römischer Mahlpraxis und paulinischer Theologia Crucis (1 Kor 11:17–34),” ZNW 82 (1991): 183–213.

Lane, W., “Covenant: The Key to Paul’s Conflict with Corinth,” TynBul 33 (1982): 3–30.

Léon-Dufour, X., “ ‘Prenez’: Ceci est mon corps,” NRT 104 (1982): 223–40.

Lietzmann, H., Mass and Lord’s Supper: A Study in the History of the Liturgy (Eng. trans., Leiden: Brill, 1979), 20–54, 160–86, 193–208, 596–620.

Maccoby, H., “Paul and the Eucharist,” NTS 37 (1991): 247–67.

Marshall, I. H., Last Supper and Lord’s Supper (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980), 108–23 and throughout.

Martin, R. P., Worship in the Early Church (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974 [1964]).

Mazzo, Enrico, The Origins of the Eucharistic Prayer (Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical Press, 1995), 30–90.

McGowan, A. B., “ ‘Is There a Liturgical Text in This Gospel?’ The Institution Narratives and Their Early Interpretative Communities,” JBL 118 (1999): 73–87.

Merk, O., Handeln aus Glauben (Marburg: Elwert, 1968), 135–41.

Meyer, B. F. (ed.), One Loaf, One Cup: Eucharistic Studies of 1 Cor 11 and Other Eucharistic Texts (Macon, Ga.: Mercer University Press, 1993).

Moule, C. F. D., “The Judgement Theme in the Sacraments,” in W. D. Davies and D. Daube (eds.), The Background of the NT and Its Eschatology: Studies in Honour of C. H. Dodd (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1956), 464–81.

Murphy-O’Connor, J., “Eucharist and Community in First Corinthians,” Worship 51 (1977): 56–69.

———, “House Churches and the Eucharist,” BibTod 22 (1984): 32–38.

———, St. Paul’s Corinth (Wilmington: Glazier, 1983).

Neuenzeit, P., Das Herrenmahl. Studien zur paulinischen Eucharistie-auffassung (Munich: Kösel, 1960).

Passakos, D. C., “Eucharist in First Cor: A Sociologic Study,” RB 104 (1997): 192–210.

Paulsen, H., “Schisma und Häresie. Untersuchungen zu 1 Kor 11:18, 19,” ZTK 79 (1982): 180–211.

Pesce, M., “Mangiare e bere il proprio giudizio. Una concezione culturale commune in 1 Cor e a Sota?” RevistB 38 (1990): 495–513.

Pesch, R., Das Abendmahl und Jesu Todesverständnis (Freiburg: Herder, 1978).

Pritchard, N. M., “Progression of Faith and Admission to the Communion in the Light of 1 Cor 11 and Other Passages,” SJT 33 (1980): 55–70.

Popkes, W., Christus Traditus. Eine Untersuchung zum Begriff der Dahingabe im Neuen Testament (Zürich: Zwingli Verlag, 1967).

Porter, C. L., “An Interpretation of the Lord’s Supper Texts: 1 Cor 10:14–22 and 11:17–34,” Encounter 50 (1989): 29–45.

Ridderbos, H. N., “The Earliest Confession of the Atonement in Paul,” in R. Banks (ed.), Reconciliation and Hope: NT Essays on Atonement and Eschatology Presented to L. L. Morris (Exeter: Paternoster, 1974), 76–89.

Roth, Cecil, The Haggadah: New Edition with Notes (Heb. and Eng. trans., London: Soncino, 1934).

Schmitz, O., “παραγγέλλω,” TDNT 5 (1967), 761–65.

Schneider, S., “Glaubensmängel in Korinth. Eine neue Deutung der ‘Schwachen, Kranken, Schlafenden’ in 1 Kor 11:30,” Filologia Neutestamentaria 9 (1996): 3–19.

Schrage, W., “Das Verständnis des Todes Jesu Christi im NT,” in E. Bizer (ed.), Das Kreuz Jesu Christi als Grund des Heils (Gütersloh: Gütersloher, 1969). 49–90.

Schweizer, E., The Lord’s Supper according to the NT (Eng. trans., London: SCM, 1967).

Theissen, G., “Social Integration and Sacramental Activity: An Analysis of 1 Cor 11:17–34,” in The Social Setting of Pauline Christianity (Eng. trans., Philadelphia: Fortress, 1982), 145–74.

Thurian, M., The Eucharistic Memorial (Eng. trans., London: Lutterworth Press, 1961).

Voegelin, E., “Remembrance of Things Past,” in Voegelin, Anamnesis (Eng. trans., Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1978), 3–13 (on the philosophy and epistemology of anamnesis).

von Campenhausen, Hans, “Das Bekenntnis im Urchristentum,” ZNW 63 (1972): 210–53.

Wainwright, G., Doxology: The Praise of God in Worship, Doctrine, and Life (London: Epworth Press, 1980), 182–217.

Wegenast, K., Das Verständnis der Tradition bei Paulus und in den Deuteropaulinen (Neukirchen: Neukirchener, 1962).

Wengst, K., “Der Apostel und die Tradition,” ZTK 69 (1972): 145–62.

Winter, B. W., “The Lord’s Supper at Corinth: An Alternative Reconstruction,” RTR 37 (1978): 73–82.

———, “Secular and Christian Responses to Corinthian Famines,” TynBul 40 (1989): 86–106.

Witherington, B., Conflict and Community in Corinth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans and Carlisle: Paternoster, 1995), 241–52.

Wolff, C., “Exkurs: Die neutestamentlichen Überliefungen vom letzen Mahl Jesu,” in Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther (Leipzig: Evangelische Verlagsanstalt, 1996), 265–73.

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-21-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I have in front of me Earl Doherty’s magnificent book, JNGNM and in page 49 he writes:

Quote:

Luke 22:19—“ This is my body”
We cannot quote any further words in Luke, because what follows—about “for you, remembrance and the cup—is not found in some manuscripts

.

And which MSS would they be?

Jeffrey

EarlDoherty · 05-21-2013, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I have in front of me Earl Doherty’s magnificent book, JNGNM and in page 49 he writes:

Quote:

Luke 22:19—“ This is my body”
We cannot quote any further words in Luke, because what follows—about “for you, remembrance and the cup—is not found in some manuscripts

.

And which MSS would they be?

Jeffrey

Does that mean that you are denying that these words are not found in some manuscripts? Shesh<edit>will be happy to learn, on your authority, that there are no manuscripts in which these words are lacking.

Up to your old tricks, are you, Jeffrey?

Earl Doherty

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-21-2013, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I have in front of me Earl Doherty’s magnificent book, JNGNM and in page 49 he writes:

Quote:

Luke 22:19—“ This is my body”
We cannot quote any further words in Luke, because what follows—about “for you, remembrance and the cup—is not found in some manuscripts

.

And which MSS would they be?

Jeffrey

Does that mean that you are denying that these words are not found in some manuscripts?

Not at all (especially since I noted as much when I previously reproduced the Greek text of D etc.). I just want to see if Iskandar knows which MSS they are (push comes to shove, he doesn't --or didn't before my previous message -- and he certainly wouldn't if he only has your book as his source for his claim) and what weight should be/is now assigned to them text critically.

Now how about your claim that all text critical scholarship (presumably the critical scholarship of Metzger and Aland and that which stands behind the NA 27/28 and the UBS 4) accept the shorter reading in Luke as original?

Jeffrey

EarlDoherty · 05-21-2013, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

When I pointed out that the “words of the Lord” by Paul in his epistles are regarded by a major portion of mainstream scholarship as communications he believes he has received from Christ in heaven,

Is this really so with respect at least to 1 Cor 11:23? A major portion of the scholars who have commented on this text do indeed believe that "from the Lord" here means "from the heavenly Christ"?

Here's a pretty compete list of commentaries on 1 Corinthians followed by a fairly complete bibliography on the passage in which 1 Cor. 11:23 appears.

I haven't had time to have a look at all of the commentaries and the articles I list. But you obviously have -- otherwise you wouldn't be able to make the claim you do that a major portion of scholarship supports the idea that "from the lord" in 1 Cor 11:23 means "from the heavenly Christ". So would you do me and everyone else here the favour of showing you are indeed correct in your claim by pointing out in which of these commentaries and articles we can find their authors saying what you have noted they say?

With thanks in advance,

Jeffrey

[snip Jeffrey's "text wall", which is another of his old tricks]

First of all, Jeffrey, don't make it sound like the phrase "major portion" means a "majority." I make no such claim and never have. In fact, I don't know what the exact proportion is. Neither I nor you (as you admit) have checked all the commentaries you list, but it is a significant element of interpretation in regard to this type of passage, and I have every right to appeal to it.

What I have said is that the "words of the Lord" as a group (generally comprising four) have a significant interpretation within traditional mainstream scholarship as communications Paul believes he has received from Christ in heaven. In my books, I give Bultmann, Kelber and Mack as examples (backed up with several passages in non-Pauline epistles indicating the same principle), but you and I know there are more. It is true that among even those scholars, the tendency is to want to hedge on 1 Cor. 11:23, simply because it is the one passage in Paul which could possibly be dependent on a Gospel-like scene, and that is hard for them to give up. But the principle that applies to the other three can equally be so in regard to this one, and ESPECIALLY since Paul in fact tells us directly in verse 23 that he received this information "from the Lord" with no mention of historical tradition. (And yes, Jeffrey, I am aware of the "para" vs. "apo" argument, which you should know is entirely inconclusive, since the actual usages of both prepositions turn out to be occasionally interchangeable in NT texts.)

Not quite, Stephan. I said I thought I'd never live to see the day that I would welcome Jeffrey Gibson back to our illustrious fold, but my implication there was that compared to the likes of Shesh<edit> he is a reasonably knowledgeable scholarly voice and far preferable to having on hand than Mr. "Horse-Shit". The problem has always been, however, that Jeffrey resorts to his own questionable tactics and avoidance of committing himself to directly engaging opponents' arguments, let alone actually stating his own and arguing them, and that is unfortunately again in evidence here. His two postings that I have replied to embody what I have long called "Gibsonisms".

Earl Doherty

EarlDoherty · 05-21-2013, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I have in front of me Earl Doherty’s magnificent book, JNGNM and in page 49 he writes:

Quote:

Luke 22:19—“ This is my body”
We cannot quote any further words in Luke, because what follows—about “for you, remembrance and the cup—is not found in some manuscripts

.

And which MSS would they be?

Jeffrey

Does that mean that you are denying that these words are not found in some manuscripts?

Not at all (especially since I noted as much when I previously reproduced the Greek text of D etc.). I just want to see if Iskandar knows which MSS they are (push comes to shove, he doesn't --or didn't before my previous message -- and he certainly wouldn't if he only has your book as his source for his claim) and what weight should be/is now assigned to them text critically.

Now how about your claim that all text critical scholarship (presumably the critical scholarship of Metzger and Aland and that which stands behind the NA 27/28 and the UBS 4) accept the shorter reading in Luke as original?

Jeffrey

And just where did I claim that it was "all" text critical scholarship? I may have implied that all text critical scholarship is aware that there are some manuscripts with the longer quote and some without it, but I would never claim that every text critical scholar judges that the shorter form is the original and authentic. Again, the fact that some do and that it is a "major" interpretation regarding that passage gives me the right to appeal to it in regard to the issue Shesh<edit> and I were discussing.

Earl Doherty

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-21-2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

[

First of all, Jeffrey, don't make it sound like the phrase "major portion" means a "majority."

OK. So what does it mean? 10 percent? 20? More? Less?

And the claim of yours that there is a "major (and not a minor) portion" of scholarship, however that is to be defined, still implies that you have acquainted yourself with the bulk of scholarship on this issue, doesn't it? How otherwise could you know what the portion was?

Quote:

I make no such claim and never have. In fact, I don't know what the exact proportion is.

So even your claim that it is a "major" portion is bogus?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-21-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

And just where did I claim that it was "all" text critical scholarship?

Umm ..here.

Quote:

When I pointed out that all of critical scholarship, based on the manuscript evidence, regards Luke’s Last Supper words as limited to “This is my body” and therefore he could not have served as the source of Paul’s Lord’s Supper words, do you even acknowledge that, let alone counter it by some kind of attempted rational argument of your own?

Jeffrey

EarlDoherty · 05-21-2013, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

And just where did I claim that it was "all" text critical scholarship?

Umm ..here.

Quote:

When I pointed out that all of critical scholarship, based on the manuscript evidence, regards Luke’s Last Supper words as limited to “This is my body” and therefore he could not have served as the source of Paul’s Lord’s Supper words, do you even acknowledge that, let alone counter it by some kind of attempted rational argument of your own?

Jeffrey

Thanks for calling that to my attention, Jeffrey. Obviously a slip of the tongue.

Although the proper way to have done it would have been to actually quote some critical scholar you were familiar with who, though acknowledging the state of the manuscripts, nevertheless felt that he could override the principle that the shorter text is likely to be the original and declare that the longer version was original. Without that, for all we know my statement could actually be correct!

(You see, Stephan, that is what I mean by a "Gibsonism". Jeffrey rarely if ever actually argues whatever point he is trying to make against me and backs it up with evidence. At least, not without a lot of arm-twisting.)

Maybe you might also find some critical scholar who regards the verses in Mark 16 after verse 8 are original, too, who knows?

Earl Doherty

EarlDoherty · 05-21-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

[

First of all, Jeffrey, don't make it sound like the phrase "major portion" means a "majority."

OK. So what does it mean? 10 percent? 20? More? Less?

And the claim of yours that there is a "major (and not a minor) portion" of scholarship, however that is to be defined, still implies that you have acquainted yourself with the bulk of scholarship on this issue, doesn't it? How otherwise could you know what the portion was?

Quote:

I make no such claim and never have. In fact, I don't know what the exact proportion is.

So even your claim that it is a "major" portion is bogus?

Jeffrey

You're still trying to define "major" as majority. Major speaks to significance or importance. Are you trying to say that a theory held by Rudolf Bultmann, Werner Kelber and Burton Mack (to mention only three), is not significant or "major", worthy of being appealed to? Can you at least quote any one of those three mentioning that he stands in isolation, with no one else holding to that theory?

And if you expect me to be familiar with all the content of your text wall of commentaries, why should I not expect that of you, and that to back up your criticism expect you to quote a "major" portion of them rejecting a position like Bultmann's and thereby demonstrate that I am utterly wrong in referring to that interpretation within scholarship as major or significant and appealing to it?

But then, that's the sort of thing you never supply. It's always done by unbacked innuendo.

But you have a good night. I won't be back online until tomorrow evening.

Earl Doherty

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