Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 08-02-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Which doesnt change Pauls historicty at all

Faith is a rock but it has nothing to do with the business of doing history.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Which doesn't change Pauls historicity.

mountainman · 08-02-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Which doesnt change Pauls historicty at all

Faith is a rock but it has nothing to do with the business of doing history.

Which doesn't change Pauls historicity.

(anyone's) historicity is always hypothetical not factual.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

outhouse · 08-02-2013, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Which doesn't change Pauls historicity.

(anyone's) historicity is always hypothetical not factual.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

I think probability is the word you were looking for, and Paul has plenty of that.

mountainman · 08-02-2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I think probability is the word you were looking for, and Paul has plenty of that.

Yes I agree that historicity is essentially a hypothetical probability (and never a "fact" which you seem to be claiming).

This has been discussed at length here.

The witness of Paul

Quote:

Drews stresses that in the Germany of the 1900s, the genuineness of those four chief "Paulinae" (i.e. Paul's Epistles) "is so firmly held by [theologians] that any doubt about it is at once rejected by them as not to be taken seriously." This fear didn't stop from doubts the likes of:

Bruno Bauer, the first to declare all Paul's epistles to be 2nd-century forgeries;[26]

the English radicals Edwin Johnson, John M. Robertson, Thomas Whittaker;

the Dutch radicals G.J.P.J. Bolland, Willem C. Van Manen[27] (with two key articles in English on "Paul & Paulinism"[28] and Romans,[29][30] and G.A. van den Bergh van Eysinga, all belonging to the famous Dutch Radical School, whose specialty was radical criticism of the Paulinae[31] and denial of their authenticity;[32]

and Albert Kalthoff who revived Bruno Bauer's ideas and gave them a new shine.

Drews says it loud and clear: There's a vicious circle of methodology in historical theologians, and if they find Jesus, it's because they assume in advance he's already in the stories.

The same may be said for Paul.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

outhouse · 08-03-2013, 10:00 AM

Doubt is fine, I have doubts regarding how much fiction Paul used.

But a Hellenistic follower named Paul was running around a few decades after Jesus death, preaching his version of the theology. So much so Paul even had his own Disciples who expanded on his work and theology not making this martyr seem so radical.

Clivedurdle · 08-03-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

It is possible the Pauline epistles are themselves a compilation of different theologies

Elaine Pagels has teased out gnostic and catholic, I wonder how many more....

Maybe we are not looking at interpolations but processes of editing and rewriting to include latest thinking, following the practice of the Library of Alexandria with Homer.

Clivedurdle · 08-03-2013, 01:13 PM

I propose there are no authentic and inauthentic Pauline writings - they are all results of time and place...

outhouse · 08-03-2013, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

It is possible the Pauline epistles are themselves a compilation of different theologies

Elaine Pagels has teased out gnostic and catholic, I wonder how many more....

Maybe we are not looking at interpolations but processes of editing and rewriting to include latest thinking, following the practice of the Library of Alexandria with Homer.

Except for one huge problem.

At this time period there was no typical Judaism as known today. As Paul a Hellenist who realy did not follow typical laws, defining pauls Judaism is very complicated.

Im my opinion, that is why we see the reported diversity noted.

outhouse · 08-03-2013, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I propose there are no authentic and inauthentic Pauline writings - they are all results of time and place...

Is that unsubstatiated due to the almost near consensus in mainstream scholarships?

MrMacSon · 08-03-2013, 03:09 PM

mainstream theology 'scholarship' is laden with confirmation bias. there is little indication theologians apply the Historical Method or provide cogent or sound arguments.

argumentum ad populum is fallacy without such application of sound of cogent arguments in conjunction with proper methodology.

there is plenty of evidence early 2nd c christian writers were unaware of Paul or his worked, and there are plenty of good arguments, based on those issues, that the 'Pauline' documents were written n the mid-late 2nd C.

aa has given good accounts on these boards, and

Quote:

The name ‘Hollandse Radicalen’, Dutch Radicals, has been given to a group of Dutch New Testament scholars at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth century. In spite of their many different opinions, for example about the historicity of Jesus, the Dutch Radicals agreed that none of the so-called Pauline epistles were authentic. They argued that these epistles were written in the second century.[1]

http://www.radikalkritik.de/nashville.htm

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08-03-2013, 10:00 AM	#65
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Doubt is fine, I have doubts regarding how much fiction Paul used. But a Hellenistic follower named Paul was running around a few decades after Jesus death, preaching his version of the theology. So much so Paul even had his own Disciples who expanded on his work and theology not making this martyr seem so radical.

08-03-2013, 01:13 PM	#67
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I propose there are no authentic and inauthentic Pauline writings - they are all results of time and place...

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