jdboy

You miss the whole story of Jesus the tax paying pacifist. He was the model the Romans wanted the zealots to follow.

outhouse

You place the wrong reason to reach your personal unfounded conclusion in my opinion. You have zero evidence to back such outlandish conspiracy theories.


They the early members of the Christian movement made their sects and movements look and read as pacifist so they would not be viewed like the rebellious Jews.

This aspect was created in the wake of the fall of the temple with Gmark and the movement wanted to differentiate itself and distance itself from Jews.


Hellenist knew better then to raise a hand towards Roman power.

aa5874

Your story is "Unfounded and outlandish".

gurugeorge

If all you mean by this is that if there's no corroborative evidence of someone called "Paul" who wrote (let's say at least) major chunks of the "Pauline" letters, then the status of claims to visionary experience (which is a catch-all term that includes auditory hallucinations, as I've pointed out several times) is moot, then I agree. A made-up text could certainly have made-up claims to visions.

But as I've told you many times, I'm not concerned with that hypothesis (i.e. that the "Paul" letters are late fabrications). It is interesting, and it's good that someone (i.e. you) is pursuing it, but it's not my interest. Like Doherty, I'm more interested in seeing what can be said from a mythicist point of view while (provisionally) making as little special pleading as to dates, forgeries, interpolations, etc., as possible, and while taking as much of the Church view of things to be true, as possible (without running into absurdities).

In that sense, I'm taking it for granted (provisionally) that there was a "Paul", and that therefore if he says "the Lord spoke to me", or whatever, and if I have no reason to believe he was a fraud or was lying, then the most obvious and compelling explanation is that he had this type of experience, which is not uncommon.

I've already given you some relevant examples: Parmenides, Empedocles, and for cross-cultural triangulation, Shangqing Daoism. And for contemporary examples, there's a whole slew of anthropological stuff about shamanism - people get into trance states and go on "journeys", etc., etc., with or without the aid of ritual, breathing exercises, drugs, etc. These are just off the top of my head, and I'm not about to do any leg-work until you can give me some on-point response to the examples I've given.

Now, of course, if there was no scientific evidence that this sort of thing was possible, then we would have to claim fraud, lying, etc., for all of them. But there's lots of scientific evidence that it is perfectly possible for the brain to produce visions under certain circumstances. That's the background knowledge one has to bring to the table - otherwise, one is at risk of imputing lying where there was none, or fraud where there was none.

:huh: :constern02: Of course not, but if someone in an ancient text claims to have heard God's voice, and it's a scientifically possible thing for people to hear voices that seem to them to be the voices of celestial beings, then provided the text is genuine and we have no reason to suppose they are lying or perpetrating fraud, then that hearing-of-a-voice is a reasonable contender for a historical fact, which could form part of the story of the origin of a religion.

Now I'd like you to answer the question someone answered above but which you avoided answering: supposing the "Paul" business is a total fabrication, why do you think "Paul" was fabricated, and why the name "Paul"? What significance would such an invented character have had for 1st Century CE Christians? Or do you just not have an opinion on the question?

jdboy

So they we're secretly rebelling from Rome?

aa5874

Well, what really is your point in claiming visions and auditory hallucinations are part of the background evidence when they cannot even be corroborated and certainly can be made up??

If you told me you had visions or auditory hallucinations then that would only be useful in analyzing your mental state but not to retrieve any historical account.

If you are like Doherty then you are extremely concerned with the chronology of the Pauline Corpus.

Doherty's argument is directly dependent on the presumption of early Pauline writings before c 66 CE.

There are lots of reasons why the Pauline writers cannot be trusted which you must ignore in order to believe them.

It is most fascinating that you have decided to believe in exactly what cannot be corroborated at all and was NOT corroborated in the very Canon.

Not even the supposed PHYSICAL letters to the Churches were corroborated in the Canon by any other author.

You have not shown that any religion of antiquity started by visions because there is virtually no surviving evidence of how religions actually started in antiquity.

And, in any event, the Pauline story of visions supposedly happened AFTER he PERSECUTED the Churches of Christ.

The Pauline visions corroborated or not did NOT start the Jesus.

The Pauline writers stated that OVER 500 persons was seen of Jesus BEFORE them.

Again, the Pauline visions are irrelevant to the QUESTION of the OP.

The Pauline writers seen of Jesus LAST.

The Pauline writers were Persecutors FIRST.

The Pauline writers did NOT start the Jesus cult.

Again, you have NO evidence whatsoever that people had visions of a non-existing entity called Jesus the Christ and Son of God. You have no way of producing any manuscript from antiquity dated before c 66 CE to show that there was an actual character called Paul who claimed he was seen of the resurrected Jesus, God's Own Son.

Those questions have been answered MULTIPLE TIMES.

The Pauline Corpus and Acts of the Apostles were fabricated, invented, to fill the Big Black Hole after the supposed ASCENSION of Jesus, the Son of God.

Justin Martyr EXPOSED that there was NO history of the activities of the disciples of Jesus AFTER the fable of his ascension.

Justin Martyr described Jesus as a Mythological character born Without sexual union and showed ZERO significance to the Pauline Corpus.

Without the invention of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus it would have been recognized rather quickly and easily that there was NO history of the Jesus cult until the 2nd century.

It must be noted that the author of Acts also showed ZERO significance to the Pauline Corpus and show no awareness of them although writing AFTER the Jesus story was known.

The most significant writings for the Jesus cult were the stories of Jesus and the books of the Prophets up to the mid 2nd century.

outhouse

How can you imagine that from what I wrote?

Nothing I stated even remotely addresses that.

jdboy

What you wrote is that they were pacifists. But the Christians and their leader Jesus rebelled against Rome? Aren't you saying that Jesus stood up to Rome?
Or was Jesus actually representing Rome?

outhouse

I did not, go back and re read what I stated.


[made their sects and movements look and read as pacifist ]


I did not state that either. I believe you have a serious comprehensive issue.


Jesus was never a leader of the Proselyte/Gentile movement that grew after his death.


Jesus from Galilee had issues with Roman oppression as most traditional hard working Jews would.



He stood up against the corrupt temple due to Roman oppression.




Gibberish?

aa5874

Your claim is a fallacy. There is virtually nothing against the Romans in the Canon.

Jesus in the NT had issues with the Jews and claimed they were of their FATHER the Devil.

John 8:44 KJVThe Jesus character had issues with the Pharisees.

1. Matthew 23:13 KJV---.. woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!..

2. Matthew 23:14 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...

3. Matthew 23:15 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ..

4. Matthew 23:23 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...

5. Matthew 23:25 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...

6. Matthew 23:27 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!....

7. Matthew 23:29 KJV---Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...


Mark 3:6 KJV