Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adam · 05-24-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Who disputes that this isn't Kadesh Barnea?

Here's a vote for Mecca
in Arabia.
(and it has a German menu there as well. It seems to be a 7th Day Adventist site that started out using Velikovsky as guide.)
and

at Michael Sander's site:
and St. Paul says in Galatians says that Mt. Sinai was in Arabia as well.

And here's a vote for Petra from Steve Rudd:

in Trans-Jordan
as Josephus believed.
According to

Wikipedia regarding Petra:
"Unfortunately, the removal of the original peak has destroyed most other archaeological remains from the late Bronze Age (the standard dating of the Exodus) that might previously have been present."

Duvduv · 05-24-2013, 03:51 PM

Who the hell died and left a few Israeli archaeologists king??
Have they even found My. Sinai? Have they considered the commentaries and Talmud? Let them do more research into Jewish sources.

Heck, they are always trying to figure out the Copper Scroll and the location of Temple vessels, so let them study more sources that they don't even believe in, and figure out if they got the locations all wrong for Kadesh Barnea and Mt. Sinai. Even great rabbis who you think are part of the Great Jewish Coverup differ on these matters based on various sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

My archaelogists? They are the State of Israel's archaeologists.

And I don't give a flying fuck about the events that you obviously cherry picked as events without empirical evidence. It's pathetic. You go and dig up an irrelevant detail like the mass suicide at Masada. There is evidence that there was a siege at masada. The records show all the defenders were killed. Whether or not there was a mass suicide is an irrelevant detail attached to an established historical fact.

You are being dishonest in claiming there is an equivalence between a detail and an event. There is no equivalence, and you know it. The only way the Exodus and Masada would be equivalent if there were also no evidence that there was such a fortress of masada, there was no evidence that there was a siege, there was no evidence that the Roman Empire invaded Judea (after all, fewer romans came to judea than the alleged population in the exodus), the date was unknown, the emperor was unknown (or given some fake, non-latin, obviously made up name).

The difference in scales of these things are so utterly different that no honest person could compare them. One is a tiny drama involving a few dozen people. The other one would have ruined two nations (Egypt and Canaan) and given birth to another (Israel). No amount of lying will ever make one of these things comparable to another. I will not accept that a nation can be so crippled and ruined as Egypt would have been during the Exodus, and there be no evidence after the event that it happened. Only an IDIOT or a LIAR would possibly say that it should be believed.

Cheerful Charlie · 05-24-2013, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It wouldn't matter the source because you wouldn't accept it anyway. Their belief in the afterlife was influenced by the Greeks. Their belief in any punishment only covered this world according to theplain meaning of the Torah text, and not the next world.

The source matters because providing it is in the terms of use for this forum. You're not supposed to make spurious claims.

Where do we find someone saying that the Sadducees believed in the afterlife?

When Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!'
And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, 'We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.'
[Acts of the apostles 23.6-9]

But the Sadducees [...] take away Fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in the Underworld.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.162-166]

It would seem from the evidence it was not just a case of denying physical resurrection by the Sadducees, they went further than that.

Cheerful Charlie

semiopen · 05-25-2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Who disputes that this isn't Kadesh Barnea?

Here's a vote for Mecca
in Arabia.
(and it has a German menu there as well. It seems to be a 7th Day Adventist site that started out using Velikovsky as guide.)
and

at Michael Sander's site:
and St. Paul says in Galatians says that Mt. Sinai was in Arabia as well.

And here's a vote for Petra from Steve Rudd:

in Trans-Jordan
as Josephus believed.
According to

Wikipedia regarding Petra:
"Unfortunately, the removal of the original peak has destroyed most other archaeological remains from the late Bronze Age (the standard dating of the Exodus) that might previously have been present."

Thanks Adam, I was asking because I didn't understand the issue.

The most logical way to go about it would be to find a location that was active during the time the bible was written.

Kadesh_(Israel)

Quote:

However, since 1905 modern Ain el-Qudeirat in the Wadi el-Ain of the northern Sinai has been widely accepted as the location of biblical Kadesh Barnea. Several Iron Age fortresses have been excavated there. the oldest, a small, elliptical structure dates to the tenth century BC. but was evidently abandoned for some time after the first fort's destruction. A second fort constructed during the eighth century BC. (probably during the reign of Uzziah) was destroyed during the seventh century BC, most likely during Manasseh's reign. Two ostraca engraved in Hebrew have been recovered there, suggesting the Israelites did indeed occupy this site.[11]

This is mainstream acceptance that is over 100 years old, backed up by money.

Quote:

Kadesh-Barnea is also a key feature in the common biblical formula delineating the southern border of Israel (cf. Num. 34:4, Josh. 15:3, Ezek. 47:19 et al.)[2] and thus its identification is key to understanding both the ideal and geopolitically realized borders of ancient Israel.

Joshua, we know is post exilic:

Quote:

It proceeded to the south of the Ascent of Akrabbim, passed on to Zin, ascended to the south of Kadesh-barnea, passed on to Hezron, ascended to Addar, and made a turn to Karka. (Jos 15:3 TNK)

discussing the southern border as the wiki states -

Hezron is

Quote:

Judah's sons: Er, Onan, Shelah, Perez, and Zerah -- but Er and Onan had died in the land of Canaan; and Perez's sons were Hezron and Hamul. (Gen 46:12 TNK)

It turns out Hezron is also a son of Reuben

Quote:

The following are the heads of their respective clans. The sons of Reuben, Israel's first-born: Enoch and Pallu, Hezron and Carmi; those are the families of Reuben. (Exo 6:14 TNK)

Anyway, this seems to be definitely on the Southern border of Judah.

JewishEncyclopedia

Quote:

1. Son of Reuben and founder of the family of the Hezronites (Gen. xlvi. 9; Ex. vi. 14; Num. xxvi. 6). 2. Son of Pharez and grandson of Judah, who was the direct ancestor of David (Gen. xlvi. 12; Ruth iv. 18). He had by his first marriage three sons: Jerahmeel; Ram, from whom David descended; and Caleb. Afterward he married the daughter of Machir, who bore him Segub, the father of Jair; and after his death his wife Abijah bore Ashur (I Chron. ii. 9, 21, 24). 3. A place marking the southern limit of the territory assigned to Judah, between Kadesh-barnea and Adar (Josh. xv. 3). In the parallel list of Num. xxxiv. 4, Hezron and Addar seem to be described as one place, "Hazar-addar."

As an aside, note the mention of

Caleb_(son_of_Hezron) who is also called a Kennizite.

This is a rather confusing picture. The slim thread of clarity is that the writers are referring to a place they knew, and that they were writing in the Iron Age. The dispute looks like it comes from a bunch of weirdos.

outhouse · 05-25-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In the meantime, until archaeologists have dug up the whole Sinai desert you'll really never know about this particular case,

Boloney

Its straight mythology written almost a thousand years after the fictional events took place.

There is a good reason why scholars wont pick up a shovel looking for your presious Moshe anymore. He is exactly like Noah and the other 800 year old men that never existed.

Duvduv · 05-25-2013, 07:21 PM

I am not impressed by anyone's rhetoric, only by substance here. You guys need to go Google the words "two places called Kadesh". Not that it would make any difference to you of course.
Nor would any actual archaeological discoveries that fail to prove over a million people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In the meantime, until archaeologists have dug up the whole Sinai desert you'll really never know about this particular case,

Boloney

Its straight mythology written almost a thousand years after the fictional events took place.

There is a good reason why scholars wont pick up a shovel looking for your presious Moshe anymore. He is exactly like Noah and the other 800 year old men that never existed.

Duvduv · 05-25-2013, 07:24 PM

I am not impressed by the claims under the name of Josephus. However, it is fair to say as I described, but that immortality is questionable if they believed that the soul continues to progress in the non-physical world rather than to be physically resurrected. They were not atheists and did not believe that spirituality ends with physical death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The source matters because providing it is in the terms of use for this forum. You're not supposed to make spurious claims.

Where do we find someone saying that the Sadducees believed in the afterlife?

When Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!'
And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, 'We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.'
[Acts of the apostles 23.6-9]

But the Sadducees [...] take away Fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in the Underworld.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.162-166]

It would seem from the evidence it was not just a case of denying physical resurrection by the Sadducees, they went further than that.

Cheerful Charlie

steve_bnk · 05-25-2013, 07:32 PM

600,000 warriors/people on the move is not an exodus under duress.

It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

Cheerful Charlie · 05-25-2013, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I am not impressed by the claims under the name of Josephus. However, it is fair to say as I described, but that immortality is questionable if they believed that the soul continues to progress in the non-physical world rather than to be physically resurrected. They were not atheists and did not believe that spirituality ends with physical death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

When Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!'
And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, 'We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.'
[Acts of the apostles 23.6-9]

But the Sadducees [...] take away Fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men's own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in the Underworld.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.162-166]

It would seem from the evidence it was not just a case of denying physical resurrection by the Sadducees, they went further than that.

Cheerful Charlie

I most certainly am not impressed by your knowledge of the Saduccees or of what Josephus actually wrote about them. They did not believe in immortal souls. You think you know better about them than Josephus did? Acts tells us they did not believe in angels or spirits, which agrees with Josephus.
You say they believed in a soul that survived death? Well, the only sources we have on what the Saducceess believed about life after death tells us you have't the foggiest
about it. You don't get to make up your own 'facts'.

Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie · 05-25-2013, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

600,000 warriors/pe3ple on the move is not an exodus under duress.

It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

Yet by thee time of David, the 5 city states and satelitte cities and farms of Philistia are a major and serious military threat to israel und Judea. Their numbers were approximately 30,000 at their peak according to archaeologists. So, what happened to the Israelites who 200 years earlier boasted 600,000 warriors? Was there a big die-off the Bible did not tell us about?

Cheerful Charlie

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05-25-2013, 07:32 PM	#228
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	600,000 warriors/people on the move is not an exodus under duress. It is a massive horde that nobody messes with.

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