Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Robert Tulip · 03-23-2013, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

So the displacement of daimon into demon was a necessary consequence of the idea that God loves people.

How then do you account for the evident belief in "demons/evil spirits" on the part of people who did not believe in an all benevolent god and who were raised in cultures where that conception of deity didn't exist?Jeffrey

It is straightforward. For the Greeks, 'daimon' referred to imagined spirits including those who were good, bad and indifferent in their attitudes toward humans. Daimon was changed into the christian idea of evil spirit or demon, with the idea that demons could not be good. Goodness was reserved for the non-demonic, the angelic host accompanying god in heaven. This idea that God loves us and Satan hates us then served as a spatio-ethical organising principle for Christian myth, with demons placed on the hate side of the ledger.

Instead of the mixed view that spiritual forces have a range of attitudes, a spatial moral stratification occurred within the popular idea of heaven above and hell below. Good was associated with the higher or angelic, while evil was associated with the lower or demonic. The concept of divinity was reserved for the solely good, the higher spirits, as the concept of divine devil came to be seen as contradictory.

By contrast for the Greeks, the Olympian Pantheon was not seen as exclusively good or benevolent. The Christian project of kicking evil out of heaven involved in a shift in the concept of the daimon to associate it solely with the lower, fleshly, corrupt and evil, setting up the polarity of angels and demons.

Toto · 03-24-2013, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Even before Jeffrey joined the thread, it was established that the earlier meaning of demon/daimon included both friendly and unfriendly spirits.

Yes.

Quote:

Pete's idea that Christians invented the unfavorable meaning is clearly off the wall.

That has yet to be established.

These statements are contradictory.

Once you agree that the common meaning of daimon included friendly and unfriendly spirits, both good and evil and everything in between, you have admitted that Christians did not invent the idea of evil daimons.

Robert Tulip · 03-24-2013, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Yes.

That has yet to be established.

These statements are contradictory.

Once you agree that the common meaning of daimon included friendly and unfriendly spirits, both good and evil and everything in between, you have admitted that Christians did not invent the idea of evil daimons.

I don't think Pete suggested that Christians invented the idea that demons could be bad, only the idea that they are exclusively bad. This means Christians invented the idea that there are no good demons.

mountainman · 03-24-2013, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

.

These statements are contradictory.

Once you agree that the common meaning of daimon included friendly and unfriendly spirits, both good and evil and everything in between, you have admitted that Christians did not invent the idea of evil daimons.

I don't think Pete suggested that Christians invented the idea that demons could be bad, only the idea that they are exclusively bad. This means Christians invented the idea that there are no good demons.

Thanks Robert, I agree with that.

We have only to examine the following entry for δαίμων which was linked to in the OP.

I have colored the "evil demon" in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

DAIMON

δαίμων , ονος, voc.

A. “δαίμων” S.OC1480 (lyr.), “δαῖμον” Theoc.2.11, ὁ, ἡ, god, goddess, of individual gods or goddesses, Il.1.222, 3.420, etc.; “δαίμονι ἶσος” 5.438; ἐμίσγετο δαίμονι δαίμων, of Φιλίη and Νεῖκος, Emp. 59.1 :—but more freq. of the Divine power (while θεός denotes a God in person), the Deity, cf. Od.3.27; πρὸς δαίμονα against the Divine power, Il.17.98; σὺν δαίμονι by its grace, 11.792; κατὰ δαίμονα, almost, = τύχῃ, by chance, Hdt.1.111; “τύχᾳ δαίμονος” Pi.O.8.67; ἄμαχος δ., i. e. Destiny, B.15.23: in pl., ὅτι δαίμονες θέλωσιν, what the Gods ordain, Id.16.117; “ταῦτα δ᾽ ἐν τῷ δ.” S. OC1443; “ἡ τύχη καὶ ὁ δ.” Lys. 13.63, cf.Aeschin.3.111; “κατὰ δαίμονα καὶ συντυχίαν” Ar.Av.544.

2. the power controlling the destiny of individuals: hence, one's lot or forlune, “δτυγερὸς δέ οἱ ἔχραε δ.” Od.5.396, cf. 10.64; “δαίμονος αἶσα κακή” 11.61; δαίμονα δώσω I will deal thee fate, i.e. kill thee, I1.8.166; freq. in Trag. of good or ill fortune, “ὅταν ὁ δ. εὐροῇ” A.Pers.601; “δ. ἀσινής” Id.Ag.1342 (lyr.); “κοινός” Id.Th.812; “γενναῖος πλὴν τοῦ δαίμονος” S.OC76; “δαίμονος σκληρότης” Antipho 3.3.4; “τὸν οἴακα στρέφει δ. ἑκάστψ” Anaxandr.4.6; personified as the good or evil genius of a family or person, “δ. τῷπλεισθενιδῶν” A.Ag.1569, cf. S.OT1194 (lyr.); “ὁ ἑκάστου δ.” Pl.Phd.107d, cf. PMag.Lond.121.505, Iamb.Myst.9.1; “ὁ δ. ὁ τὴν ἡμετέραν μοῖραν λελογχώς” Lys.2.78; “ἅπαντι δ. ἀνδρι συμπαρίσταται εὐθὺς γενομένῳ μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου” Men.16.2 D.; “δ. ἀλάστορες” Id.8D.; “ὁ μέγας [τοῦ Καίσαρος] δ.” Plu.Caes.69; ὁ σὸς δ. κακός ibid.; “ὁ βασιλέως δ.” Id.Art.15; “ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δ.” Heraclit.119; “Ξενοκράτης φησὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑκάστου εἶναι δ.” Arist.Top.112a37.

II. δαίμονες, οἱ, souls of men of the golden age, acting as tutelary deities, Hes.Op. 122, Thgn.1348, Phoc.15, Emp.115.5, etc.; “θεῶν, δ., ἡρώων, τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου” Pl.R.392a: less freq. in sg., “δαίμονι δ᾽ οἷος ἔησθα τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἄμεινον” Hes.Op.314; τὸν τὲ δ. Δαρεῖον ἀγκαλεῖσθε, of the deified Darius, A.Pers.620; νῦν δ᾽ ἐστὶ μάκαιρα δ., of Alcestis, E.Alc.1003 (lyr.), cf.IG12(5).305.5 (Paros): later, of departed souls, Luc.Luct.24; δαίμοσιν εὐσεβέσιν, = Dis Manibus, IG14.1683; so θεοὶ δ., ib.938, al.: also, ghost, Paus.6.6.8.

2. generally, spiritual or semi-divine being inferior to the Gods, Plu.2.415a, al., Sallust.12, Dam.Pr.183, etc.; esp. evil spirit, demon, Ev.Matt.8.31, J.AJ8.2.5; “φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46; δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4; “πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

3. ἀγαθὸς δ. the Good Genius to whom a toast was drunk after dinner, Ar.V.525, Nicostr.Com.20, D.S.4.3, Plu.2.655e, Philonid. ap. Ath.15.675b, Paus.9.39.5, IG12(3).436 (Thera), etc.; of Nero, “ἀ. δ. τῆς οἰκουμένης” OGI666.3; of the Nile, ἀ. δ. ποταμός ib.672.7 (i A.D.); of the tutelary genius of individuals (supr. 1), “ἀ. δ. Ποσειδωνίου” SIG1044.9 (Halic.): pl., δαίμονες ἀ., = Lat. Di Manes, SIG1246 (Mylasa): Astrol., ἀγαθός, κακός δ., names of celestial κλῆροι, Paul.Al.N.4, O.1, etc. (Less correctly written Ἀγαθοδαίμων, q.v.).

B. = δαήμων, knowing, δ. μάχης skilled in fight, Archil.3.4. (Pl. Cra.398b, suggests this as the orig. sense; while others would write δαήμονες in Archil., and get rid of this sense altogether; cf. however αἵμων. More probably the Root of δαίμων (deity) is δαίω to distribute destinies;; cf. Alcm.48.)

So here are the small number of negative exceptions which commence with Ev.Matt.8.31.... (5)

esp. evil spirit, demon,
Ev.Matt.8.31,
Josephus.AJ8.2.5;
“φαῦλοι δ.” Alex.Aphr.Pr.2.46;
δαίμονος ἔσοδος εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, Aret.SD1.4;
“πρᾶξις ἐκβάλλουσα δαίμονας” PMag.Par.1227.

The rest of the usage denotes positive use or ambivalence.

Now I have agreed that this is not an exhaustive list of citations, and therefore it is logical that they may be expanded. Jeffrey has provided a list of 12 references he claims are negative, which I think include these 5. If we had Jeffrey's references before us it seems also logical that we could CONSIDERABLY expand the number of positive (or ambivalent) references, which clearly statistically dominate the definition above.

Again the outstanding question of precedence is chronology.

What do Hippocrates and Xenophon have to contribute to the sample?

I am still trying to find an English translation for the Greek references that Jeffrey has so kindly provided.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-24-2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Again the outstanding question of precedence is chronology.

What do Hippocrates and Xenophon have to contribute to the sample?

I am still trying to find an English translation for the Greek references that Jeffrey has so kindly provided.

Sorry I missed this contribution earlier ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

I quoted this, to demonstrate two things:

a. Jeffrey Gibson is wrong to cite Hippocrates as an example of ancient Greek practice identifying πνεύμα with spirit. Hippocrates makes clear, that his use of pneuma, is precisely the same as our own: Pneumatology is the French word for Respiratory Medicine. πνεύμα ALSO means "spirit", but primarily means "breath", for Hippocrates. That text, above, with "(pneuma)" embedded represents Charles Darwin Adams' writing, not my own. Adams wanted his readers to be certain to comprehend, that Hippocrates was using the Greek word pneuma to represent AIR, not "evil spirit". So, I am not able to understand why Jeffrey Gibson cited Hippocrates as someone who equated pneuma with demon? Where in this text, cited by Jeffrey, do we find either pneuma or demon?

Hippocrates De Morbo Sacro, 1 (VI, p. 362, Littré): The Sacred Disease

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson, refusing to provide the link, above, lest someone demonstrate his error

Ὁκόσα δὲ δείματα νυκτὸς παρίσταται καὶ φόβοι καὶ παράνοιαι καὶ ἀναπηδήσιες ἐκ τῆς κλίνης καὶ φόβητρα καὶ φεύξιες ἔξω, Ἑκάτης φασὶν εἶναι ἐπιβολὰς καὶ ἡρώων ἐφόδους.

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

But terrors which happen during the night, and fevers, and delirium, and jumpings out of bed, and frightful apparitions, and fleeing away,-all these they hold to be the plots of Hecate, and the invasions the and use purifications and incantations, and, as appears to me, make the divinity to be most wicked and most impious.

How does this passage relate, IN ANY WAY, to the OP?
What utter horseshit, to quote, my favorite author, Sheshbazzar.

Thanks tanya.

Jeffrey - is this a fair English translation of your Hippocrates citation?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander · 03-24-2013, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Yes.

That has yet to be established.

These statements are contradictory.

Once you agree that the common meaning of daimon included friendly and unfriendly spirits, both good and evil and everything in between, you have admitted that Christians did not invent the idea of evil daimons.

Toto

The Christians invented a fulltime professional hellish-demon. These demons have only one function: to take humans to hell with them. Classical Greece had demons that like men were good and bad, and it also had gods –including Zeus—who did bad things, like raping women.

Christianity has only evil demons who take people to hell—this is not Greek.
Christianity invented a god who died for us to save us from exclusively evil demons and a god whose flesh is eaten and whose blood is drunk in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Christianity invented a god who is sacrificed on the altar in every Mass,

Why are you defending what you do not understand?

Clivedurdle · 03-24-2013, 05:09 AM

http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...s/Pagels99.pdf

Quote:

The Origin of Satan in Christian Tradition ELAINE PAGELS
THE TANNER LECTURES ON HUMAN VALUES
Delivered at University of Utah May 14, 1997

Quote:

The book of Job, for example, pictures Satan as an angel, one of the “sons of God,” a member of God’s council—a kind of divine “prosecuting attorney” to whom God assigns the task of afflicting Job in order to test the limits of his loyalty—indeed, a kind of “devil’s advocate.” But in Job, as in all classical Hebrew sources, Satan never acts independently, never on his own initia- tive; on the contrary, he remains one of God’s angels, entirely sub- ject to God’s will. But some 500 years later, the dissident groups I mentioned began to turn this rather unpleasant angel into a far more malevolent - figure; he becomes God’s enemy, his antagonist, even his rival.

Iskander · 03-24-2013, 05:15 AM

The vulgate translates sorcery and graven images as follows:

2 kings 9:22- sorcery
22 And when Joram saw Jehu, he said: Is there peace, Jehu? And he answered: What peace? so long as the fornications of Jezabel, thy mother, and her many sorceries, are in their vigour.

cumque vidisset Ioram Hieu dixit pax est Hieu at ille respondit quae pax adhuc fornicationes Hiezabel matris tuae et veneficia eius multa vigent

Isaiah 47:9 ,12 -sorcery

47 9 These two things shall come upon thee suddenly in one day, barrenness and widowhood. All things are come upon thee, because of the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great hardness of thy enchanters.

venient tibi duo haec subito in die una sterilitas et viduitas universa venerunt super te propter multitudinem maleficiorum tuorum et propter duritiam incantatorum tuorum vehementem

47 12 Stand now with thy enchanters, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, in which thou hast laboured from thy youth, if so be it may profit thee any thing, or if thou mayst become stronger.

sta cum incantatoribus tuis et cum multitudine maleficiorum tuorum in quibus laborasti ab adulescentia tua si forte quid prosit tibi aut si possis fieri fortior

Micah 5:12 – graven things

5 12 And I will destroy thy graven things, and thy statues, out of the midst of thee: and thou shalt no more adore the works of thy hands.

et perire faciam sculptilia tua et statuas tuas de medio tui et non adorabis ultra opera manuum tuarum

Nahum 3:4 sorcery

3 4 Because of the multitude of the fornications of the harlot that was beautiful and agreeable, and that made use of witchcraft, that sold nations through her fornications, and families through her witchcrafts.

propter multitudinem fornicationum meretricis speciosae et gratae et habentis maleficia quae vendidit gentes in fornicationibus suis et familias in maleficiis suis

http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=39&c=3

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-24-2013, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Toto

The Christians invented a fulltime professional hellish-demon. These demons have only one function: to take humans to hell with them.

Really? Is this truly what all NT and other early Christian texts that speak of "demons" say the function of "demons" (including Satan) is? Absolutely no other functions at all?

Can you tell me what studies of the demonology of the NT and early Christianity informs your view?

Quote:

Christianity has only evil demons who take people to hell—this is not Greek.

In take it that you have not examined the demonology of the DSS or of the OT Apocrypha (Tobit??) and Pseudepigrapha, let alone of the Talmud and Mishnah. Is that correct?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-24-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The vulgate translates sorcery and graven images as follows:

Wow! The Vulgate translates English words???

Jeffrey

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03-24-2013, 05:15 AM	#248
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	The vulgate translates sorcery and graven images as follows: 2 kings 9:22- sorcery 22 And when Joram saw Jehu, he said: Is there peace, Jehu? And he answered: What peace? so long as the fornications of Jezabel, thy mother, and her many sorceries, are in their vigour. cumque vidisset Ioram Hieu dixit pax est Hieu at ille respondit quae pax adhuc fornicationes Hiezabel matris tuae et veneficia eius multa vigent Isaiah 47:9 ,12 -sorcery 47 9 These two things shall come upon thee suddenly in one day, barrenness and widowhood. All things are come upon thee, because of the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great hardness of thy enchanters. venient tibi duo haec subito in die una sterilitas et viduitas universa venerunt super te propter multitudinem maleficiorum tuorum et propter duritiam incantatorum tuorum vehementem 47 12 Stand now with thy enchanters, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, in which thou hast laboured from thy youth, if so be it may profit thee any thing, or if thou mayst become stronger. sta cum incantatoribus tuis et cum multitudine maleficiorum tuorum in quibus laborasti ab adulescentia tua si forte quid prosit tibi aut si possis fieri fortior Micah 5:12 – graven things 5 12 And I will destroy thy graven things, and thy statues, out of the midst of thee: and thou shalt no more adore the works of thy hands. et perire faciam sculptilia tua et statuas tuas de medio tui et non adorabis ultra opera manuum tuarum Nahum 3:4 sorcery 3 4 Because of the multitude of the fornications of the harlot that was beautiful and agreeable, and that made use of witchcraft, that sold nations through her fornications, and families through her witchcrafts. propter multitudinem fornicationum meretricis speciosae et gratae et habentis maleficia quae vendidit gentes in fornicationibus suis et familias in maleficiis suis http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=39&c=3 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm

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