stephan huller

Right, it wasn't 'public' in the sense that they would allow everyone to enter. Just the 'good people'

stephan huller

I am at a complete loss how to answer this question satisfactorily

stephan huller

I wonder if the answer is to be found in Irenaeus (and Tertullian's) frequent appeal to the better and more reliable character of the Catholic manuscripts of the New Testament when compared to the heresies. I've always thought this argument was ludicrous because of its subjectivity. Of course you think your edition is better. But if they somehow had 'official recognition' on some level - i.e. the apostolic succession list, the 'Acts' (even this word suggests 'official' status) of the Apostles, the apologetic writings were all present in an official library and the heretics were slinking around with clandestine copies of things, then their enemies just seemed like losers by comparison.

aa5874

There is something radically disturbing about your post. You are actually mis-representing your own position.

See http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-irenaeus.html

Anyone who properly analyses "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus will quickly and easily recognize that it a source of fiction and a massive forgery [a product of multiple authors] composed well after the 2nd century.

To carry the name of Christian was considered a CRIME, and further, in the 2nd century, Christians of the Jesus cult were considered ATHEISTS and CANNIBALS so it is completely illogical and absurd to assume that Libraries of the Roman Empire were filled with literature from such despicable and hated cult.

Christians were persecuted and SLAUGHTERED in the time of Commodus.

Athenagoras of Athens SPECIFICALLY wrote to COMMODUS in a "Plea for the Christians."

Athenagoras' Plea for the Christians" Christians were persecuted and SLAUGHTERED under the reign of Commodus.

"Against Heresies" is a product of fiction, forgery and false attribution.

stephan huller

Unlike you apparently, I approach matters scientifically which means I begin with questions and slowly come to a better understanding. My blog reflects that and it is said explicitly there that this it acts as a public 'notebook' reflecting where my mind is at. I am still not convinced of a strong connection to Lyons. Irenaeus though certainly wrote during the time of Commodus.

stephan huller

Another interesting point from that article I've been citing near the end:

If Christians books could get in there those copies of the commonly held manuscripts would by their very nature have perceived authority and authenticity. Since the Marcionites and other heretics shunned the public disclosure of their texts, there was no competition that I can see to the Catholic Church. It all comes down to (a) whether the Church wanted that recognition (which I think it did) and (b) whether the Palatine library or a related library in the Regio Templum Pacis would give it (which is up for grabs right now).

stephan huller

Where was this kept and who is 'us' here? The Roman Church or the Roman people? Was there a Church building which housed the manuscript of according to Mark in a library? If not why aren't the other gospels listed as being in 'our' possession?

Actually the same wording is used of Luke in an anti-Marcionite section of Book Three:

Does this mean that both autograph copies of the works - associated with the Marcionites - were in the possession of the Church? Rome was in Irenaeus's eye the Church of Peter and Paul (cf. AH 3.2.2) not just Peter.

stephan huller

'handed down to us' and 'handed down' is a big claim in Irenaeus. I see it over and over again in Book Three. Probably forty times. If the Church of Rome is specifically meant, it implies they had original manuscripts 'handed down' by the apostles and had to have been kept somewhere - i.e. a library for safe keeping.

stephan huller

... the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; and this was the same which is handed down by them in so varied and discordant forms. [1.21.1]

Besides this, he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us, furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul [1.27.2]

WE have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith ... After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him.[3.1.1]

In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. [3.2.3]

[Polycarp] having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,--a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,--that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.[3.2.4]

Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. [3.4.1]

Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question(2) among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches? To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition [3.4.1,2]

This, therefore, having been clearly demonstrated here (and it shall yet be so still more clearly), that neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme: the prophets and the apostles confessing the Father and the Son; but naming no other as God, and confessing no other as Lord: and the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; -- it is incumbent on us to follow, if we are their disciples indeed, their testimonies to this effect. For Matthew the apostle -- knowing, as one and the same God, Him who had given promise to Abraham ... [3.9.1]

Thus God and the Father are truly one and the same; He who was announced by the prophets, and handed down by the true Gospel; whom we Christians worship and love with the whole heart, as the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things therein. [3.10.5]

Indeed, they have arrived at such a pitch of audacity, as to entitle their comparatively recent writing "the Gospel of Truth," though it agrees in nothing with the Gospels of the Apostles, so that they have really no Gospel which is not full of blasphemy. For if what they have published is the Gospel of truth, and yet is totally unlike those which have been handed down to us from the apostles, any who please may learn, as is shown from the Scriptures themselves, that that which has been handed down from the apostles can no longer be reckoned the Gospel of truth. But that these Gospels alone are true and reliable, and admit neither an increase nor diminution of the aforesaid number, I have proved by so many and such [arguments]. For, since God made all things in due proportion and adaptation, it was fit also that the outward aspect of the Gospel should be well arranged and harmonized. The opinion of those men, therefore, who handed the Gospel down to us, having been investigated, from their very fountainheads, let us proceed also to the remaining apostles, and inquire into their doctrine with regard to God; then, in due course we shall listen to the very words of the Lord. [3.11.9]

But surely if Luke, who always preached in company with Paul, and is called by him "the beloved," and with him performed the work of an evangelist, and was entrusted to hand down to us a Gospel, learned nothing different from him (Paul), as has been pointed out from his words, how can these men, who were never attached to Paul, boast that they have learned hidden and unspeakable mysteries? [3.14.1]

True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre- eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]. [4.23.8]

IN the four preceding books, my very dear friend, which I put forth to thee, all the heretics have been exposed, and their doctrines brought to light, and these men refuted who have devised irreligious opinions. [I have accomplished this by adducing] something from the doctrine peculiar to each of these men, which they have left in their writings, as well as by using arguments of a more general nature, and applicable to them all. Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons. [5.preface]

Roger Pearse

The optimates, I suspect. Public in the same sense as a public school like Eton.