Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Will Wiley · 07-17-2013, 03:48 AM

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Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Mark has pulled on all the classical symbols of a noble death to introduce his Jesus (the bird, the heavenly ascent/descent, the heavenly voice, the message of the beloved son) to balance the conclusion that portrays an otherwise ostensibly ignoble death.

So, because Mark has Jesus dying an ignoble death, he decides to ..balance this with some early symbols of noble death?

Will Wiley · 07-17-2013, 03:56 AM

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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

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Originally Posted by Davka

In the story, John asks Jesus why he is coming to be baptized, and Jesus replies that it is "to fulfill righteousness." The righteous Jew, or tzadik, is one who has fulfilled the Law according to Moses. Perhaps the "righteousness" in the story is a reference to the Law's requirement that a Priest must be ritually washed before entering the Holy of Holies?

I think it is best to make sense of that phrase in light of the context and the patterns of the gospels. In that passage, Jesus was responding to John's objection, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus responds, "Let it be so now; for it is proper for us in this way to fulfil all righteousness." We can only speculate what that means, because it is never explained, and the meaning is not obvious to any early Christian commentators.

The meaning is clear. Why try to overanalyse it?

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I think the ambiguity is intended, because the author of Matthew really did not have a good reason why John was baptizing Jesus. It was a weak ad hoc reason. The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was an embarrassment to the gospel authors,

Obviously not embarrasing enough to leave out

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not just because Jesus was supposedly sinless,

The gospel authors dont find this so important.

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but because the cult of John the Baptist competed with the cult of Jesus,

No evidence of this. They agree with each other. Israel has strayed, judgement is coming.

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so the baptism would imply that John was holier than Jesus,

Only to you, and maybe christians.

Vallhall · 07-17-2013, 05:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Will Wiley

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Originally Posted by Vallhall

What purpose would be given to explain baptism of Jesus?
Not sure why or how the question suddenly struck my ignorant mind. But now I simply struggle to let it go.
Was the divine born in sin? could he be reborn, if not cleansed from his former presence? Does something about the situation even make sense?

This is christian theology not the gospels.

I present some questions, not claims, as any observant reader could assume by me admitting ignorance on the topic. But as I have your attention, I could perhaps ask if you had a interesting perspective to offer.

The baptism comes from the gospels. The purpose or meaning behind baptism, is much more difficult to sort out. What is purpose and meaning behind baptism as you see it?

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Originally Posted by Will Wiley

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Originally Posted by Vallhall

Without going to far out on a limb, I am reminded of the painting The Virgin by Da Vinci. If considering linguistics and theory of reference and name, one could almost speculate in the two being aspects of the same. Both being function with reference to each other names.

What?

John (name) the baptist (reference to ritual associated with)
Jesus (name) Christ ( anointed/awaited king of the jews)
Cyrus (name) the Christ ( anointed/awaited king of the jews)
Jesus ( name) Garcia (LA cab driver/NOT awaited king of the jews)

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Originally Posted by Will Wiley

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Originally Posted by Vallhall

I struggle with how baptism in literal terms could in any way make
sense, without doing so purely on faith. So hopefully someone can add the obvious I fail to see.

Everything in the gospels, pretty much, can be applied to the destruction of Jerusalem at Romes hand. John comes in that vein and so does jesus.
Jesus doesn't compete with john but agrees with him. Judgement is coming on Israel, people should wake up and repent.

Ehhh... Now I am lost. The messiah comes to judge the people of Israel? Could you be more specific please. All my heathen Norse nose can make out of this, is the smell of true christian blood.

( Just a joke of course, but probably not funny unless knowing something about Norwegian folklore ).

I struggle to be subtle with question, so I keep it simple. Are you a so-called "rapture" fan? Christian like other christians, but with some kind of attraction to the idea of absolute devastation and destruction? Not that it matters to me, other than I am not sure I follow you.

What I would really appreciateare some biblical references. As most are probably more versed in bible reading than me. But for my own sake, I could have use of reading up on certain passages people find important.

Will Wiley · 07-17-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallhall

Ehhh... Now I am lost. The messiah comes to judge the people of Israel? Could you be more specific please. All my heathen Norse nose can make out of this, is the smell of true christian blood.

( Just a joke of course, but probably not funny unless knowing something about Norwegian folklore ).

Both John and Jesus are apocalyptic prophets in the gospels. Both are portrayed in the stories as prophets who warn the jews. They warn against corruption.
Whether either of them really existed I don't know (nor do I care). In the stories we have, they both warn the jews and ask them to repent. All the baptisms are related to that call. Getting baptised is just some kind of committment to put aside their "evil" ways

Luke 3

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7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

The "fire" refers back the the destruction of Jerusalem

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