stephan huller

The ambiguous reference to "Herod" in the gospel Passion narratives seems designed to be generic enough to include multiple candidates and time frames. It was only with Luke that any specificity was invoked.

outhouse

The whole point is that Archelaus and Pilate together at the same time period, is a mistake no matter how you slice it.

maryhelena

:thumbs:

maryhelena

Stephan, I did not notice any references on Wikipedia to support it's dating of Archelaus's death to 18 c.e.

If one wants to get Archelaus ruling in Judea around 18 c.e. i.e. to link Archelaus with Pilate (an early date for Pilate being possible re Josephus being ambiguous on this matter - and the TF being placed prior to the expelling of Jews from Rome, around 19 c.e.) there is only one way that I can think of to do it......the assumed Josephan dating for the death of Herod the Great would have to be challenged.

Move the death of Herod the Great to around 6 c.e. - and things can look rather interesting.....The period from 4 b.c. to 6 c.e. being a period of co-regency between HG and Archelaus (Antipater could have had a few years of co-regency before being sidelined...) Thus, the sole rule of HG ended in 4 b.c. - HG 'died' to that sole rule.

The 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion story, re Acts of Pilate, either 19 or 21 c.e. (from 12 or 14 c.e.) works with the birth narrative in Slavonic Josephus. i.e. prior to the 15th year of Herod the Great.

However, gLuke changed all that earlier crucifixion story with his birth narrative around 6 c.e. i.e. around the time of the death of Herod the Great (moved from 4 b.c.) A census that year being more probable after the long rule of HG than the shorter rule of Archelaus.

Thus:

1) a crucifixion story set in the 7th year of Tiberius (Acts of Pilate) near the end of a sole rule by Archelaus from 6.c.e., around 18/19 c.e. or 21 c.e. Archelaus and Pilate are contemporaries. JtB active under Archelaus. (Slavonic Josephus)

2) a crucifixion story set around the 15th year of Tiberius. Pilate in office for 10 years from 18 c.e. and it's 28/29 c.e.

3) a crucifixion story set near the end of the rule of Herod Antipas and the war with Aretas. JtB alive until around 36 c.e. Antipas and Pilate are contemporaries. 10 years back and it's now 26 c.e. for Pilate's rule in Judea.

So, take ones pick re which crucifixion scenario one fancies.....

Actually, best to take them all and face the fact that it's a story, a prophetic story, a moving story, that lies before us - and the Josephan writer has, with his ambiguous dating of Pilate, accommodated all three crucifixion scenarios....

Obviously, once the JC story started to be viewed as historical - efforts would have to be made to stamp out the earlier crucifixion story re the 7th year of Tiberius and the Acts of Pilate.

stephan huller

I think that Jesus was crucified under Archelaus was the original understanding of Justin. The passage in Dial. 103 has been deliberately altered to make it happen under "Herod"

And there they did remain [Mary and Joseph in Egypt] until*Herod, who*slew*the infants in Bethlehem, was dead, and*Archelaus*had succeeded him. And he died before Christ*came to the dispensation on the*cross*which was given Him by His Father. And when*Herod*succeeded*Archelaus, having received the authority which had been allotted to him,*Pilate*sent to him by way ofcompliment*Jesus*bound; and*God*foreknowing that this would happen, had thus spoken: 'And they brought Him to the*Assyrian, a present to the king.'Hosea*10:6*Or He meant the*devil*by the lion roaring against Him: whomMoses*calls the serpent, but in*Job*and*Zechariah*he is called the*devil, and by*Jesus*is addressed as*Satan, showing that a compounded name was acquired by him from the*deeds*which he performed. For 'Sata' in the*Jewishand*Syrian*tongue means*apost

Adam

And your authority or reasoning for regarding these words in red as an interpolation?

outhouse

Yet Pilate throws a monkey wrench in that idea, where no imagination is required.

Minimalist

We have coins issued by Coponius, Marcus Ambibulus, Annius Rufus, Valerius Gratus and Pontius Pilate. The artifacts seem to support Josephus' list.

stephan huller

Is it really a "monkey wrench"? Why would the pagan and Christian Acts of Pilate connect Pilate to Archelaus along with the Epistle of the Apostles and possibly Justin? Why is it only with Luke that the Passion is dated to "real history" and Luke is the most reactionary of all the gospels and the most clearly linked to Josephus?

outhouse

Because its later work, and they were far removed from any actual events.



Because it matches what we know about this time period.


I agree.

Because Luke is trying to draw you in as a reader, to keep you wanting to flip pages.



I don't think the jury is out on who was drawing from who on this.


It is a compilation like Gmark, from different written and oral traditions.





End result is we know when Pilate ruled, we have coins as you noted. It doesn't match with what we know about Archelaus.


Its great your investigating why the fathers were in error, and how different aspects evolved after the fact. But we really need to keep it in context unless the evidence shows differently with certainty.


The fathers making a mistake with two men with the same name is probably probable, in this case maybe not, but people named James, I don't think they could help but screw up.

There are many reasons why names are mixed up. They didn't keep or write history books with any degree of accuracy. Look at Josephus errors and his writing style with bias.