Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 08-16-2013, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

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Originally Posted by spin

I'd like to start a discussion on the term "son of man" in its various aspects as ultimately relating to Jesus. In so doing it would be useful to look at the background of the term, its Jewish origin, how it was used, how it came into christianity and the implications withing christianity.

I think it would be a mistake to assume that the phrase “Son of Man” meant the same thing to every author who used it.

I also think it would be a mistake to try to reconstruct a single – unified evolutionary trajectory for how the expression evolved over time.

We need to consider the possibility that “Son of Man” was simply a mythological/ religious bullshit term that had no single universally understood meaning.

If one wanted to write a Jewish myth then one would certainly want to toss in the expression “Son of Man” just to conform to tradition.

There is a certain coherence throughout the Hebrew bible as to the usage of "son of man" that I think is noteworthy. It's usage in Dan 7 is no exception in that it evokes the notion of "human being" to describe the appearance of the one going up to heaven and the presence of god. When we come to the gospel usage in the mouth of Jesus we have something quite different. The term is not descriptive, but evocative of that one in Dan 7 that was "like a son of man". There is no precursor, unless it can be shown that the Book of Parables is pre-christian.

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Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

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Originally Posted by DCHindley

Just to put the academic discussion, at least as it relates to the use of Son of Man in the Parables of 1st Enoch, into a historical perspective, here is what one of the earlier heavy hitting critics had to say:

(Charles, R H) APOT vol 2 Pseudepigrapha (1913)

Regarding Daniel 7 - the “Ancient of Days = El”, “Son of Man = Baal” influence is just overwhelmingly obvious. Anyone genuinely interested in unraveling Daniel 7 should certainly investigate the Baal Epic.

I am leery of anything published before 1929 (discovery of the Ugaritic texts) just for that reason.

There is certainly a component of Baal's struggle with the sea suggested in Dan 7, despite there not being a struggle mentioned. That story finishes with Baal's return to heaven and into the presence of god, but there is also a lot of other material in the chapter, such as a species of large-scale crypto-history of the zone in the form of the successive beasts and the details concerning the fourth beast. Along with that there is the allusion to Enoch's journey to heaven to the presence of god (1 En 14). The narrative has complex origins, but it doesn't seem to have an impact on the descriptive use of the "son of man". The notable thing is the opposition of the beasts for other realms and the human figure for the members of god's kingdom.

Dan 7's "one like a son of man" is the pivot for the speculation seen in the gospels usage of SoM as well as that of the Parables. The lack of such speculation in clearly Jewish literature of the era tentatively points to a christian development.

aa5874 · 08-16-2013, 12:30 PM

The Jesus cult writers of antiquity associated the supposed prophecies in Daniel with the Son of Man in the NT.

Jesus cult writers who mention Daniel also claimed that he predicted the ADVENT of Jesus as the Son of man.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho

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"But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him.

Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3.21.7

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On this account also, Daniel,(4) foreseeing His advent, said that a stone, cut out without hands, came into this world.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

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In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated...

aa5874 · 08-16-2013, 05:20 PM

After being on this forum for over 7 years it is clear to me that some are here only to promote propaganda.

Anyone familiar with the writings attributed to the Jesus cult should know that for hundreds of years, at least since the 2nd century, that the book of Daniel was regarded as prophecies about Jesus as the Son of man.

Dialogue with Trypho XXXI

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"But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him.

Tertullian in his "Answer to the Jews" showed that the advent of Jesus happened exactly as predicted by Daniel by computing the time period of the reign of Darius to Augustus.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews 8

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Whence, therefore, do we show that the Christ came within the lxii and an half hebdomads? We shall count, moreover, from the first year of Darius, as at this particular time is shown to Daniel this particular vision; for he says, “And understand and conjecture that at the completion of your word I make you these answers.” Whence we are bound to compute from the first year of Darius, when Daniel saw this vision.

Let us see, therefore, how the years are filled up until the advent of the Christ:—

For Darius reigned...xviiii years (19).
Artaxerxes reigned...xl and i years (41).
Then King Ochus (who is also called Cyrus) reigned...xxiiii years (24).
Argus...one year.
Another Darius, who is also named Melas...xxi years (21).
Alexander the Macedonian...xii years (12)

Then, after Alexander, who had reigned over both Medes and Persians, whom he had reconquered, and had established his kingdom firmly in Alexandria, when withal he called that (city) by his own name; after him reigned, (there, in Alexandria,)

Soter...xxxv years (35).
To whom succeeds Philadelphus, reigning...xxx and viii years (38).
To him succeeds Euergetes...xxv years (25).
Then Philopator...xvii years (17).
After him Epiphanes...xxiiii years (24).
Then another Euergetes...xxviiii years (29).
Then another Soter,...xxxviii years (38).
Ptolemy...xxxvii years (37).
Cleopatra,...xx years v months (20 5-12).
Yet again Cleopatra reigned jointly with Augustus...xiii years (13).
After Cleopatra, Augustus reigned other...xliii years (43).
For all the years of the empire of Augustus were...lvi years (56).

Let us see, moreover, how in the forty-first year of the empire of Augustus, when he has been reigning for xx and viii years after the death of Cleopatra, the Christ is born.

(And the same Augustus survived, after Christ is born, xv years; and the remaining times of years to the day of the birth of Christ will bring us to the xl first year, which is the xx and viiith of Augustus after the death of Cleopatra.)

There are, (then,) made up cccxxx and vii years, v months: (whence are filled up lxii hebdomads and an half: which make up ccccxxxvii years, vi months) on the day of the birth of Christ.

The story of the advent of Jesus as the son of man is directly related to supposed prophecies in Daniel in the Jesus cult of antiquity.

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