Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-01-2013, 12:47 PM

I blame Darius and Cyrus. Those times by the Rivers of Babylon led not only to Temple building and the concept of nationhood, but the merging of Yhwh and Ahura Mazda.

They even imported Persian priestly rituals.

It is what happens when you live somewhere that gets regularly marched over. Their main export industry becomes religion. Greeks and Romans arrive and we get Monotheism v3 "Cyrusianity"

Version 4 also started just down the road.

outhouse · 07-01-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

It's not clear that Jews were ever desert nomads, illiterate or otherwise.

True

They used the Canaanite alphabet after 1200 BC and by 1000 BC we see their own writings.

HaRaAYaH · 07-02-2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

That is incorrect. Torah means teaching.

I thought you were right at first, but had to look deeper considering the source.

Torah

So inaccurate for some reason, according to the wiki, but not incorrect.

From BibleWorks

Law is a possible translation.

Strong's Hebrew gives

If we go to specific examples

Quote:

תּוֹרָ֣ה אַחַ֔ת יִהְיֶ֖ה לָֽאֶזְרָ֑ח וְלַגֵּ֖ר הַגָּ֥ר בְּתוֹכְכֶֽם׃
(Exo 12:49 WTT)

There shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among you. (Exo 12:49 TNK)

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.' (Exo 12:49 JPS)

However in honor of your return let me apologize for making such an obscene mistranslation. It's a good thing somebody with your profound knowledge was there to point this out.

Sarcasm aside.....

Torah is one of the most elastic words in Judaism. It encompasses everything. From the Torah (The Five Books of Moses) to the Nivim (Prophets) to ketuvim (writings) to the Mishnah to the Gemarah to the Midrash to Rashi to Heschel and Kaplan in modern times all of it is Torah. So while you can say Torah is law and have it be a "true" statement it's not accurate, it's too limiting. In reality Torah is Judaism. That's why the most universally Jewish explanation of Torah is teaching, the Teaching of Moses. If you look at Pirke Avot (A Tractate of the Talmud opens with the folllowing:

משה קיבל תורה מסיני

Moses received Torah on Sinai. Note it doesn't say the Torah, it says Torah,

Jaybees · 07-02-2013, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

I don't think we differ much in speculating about Judaism's origins.
.

Sorry bud but there is no speculating about Jewish ethnogenesis.

Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites who settled the highlands.

While proto Israelites were known to be semi nomadic, this was very short lived. The collapse of the Canaanite government left many Semitic people with no place to go, and they found the highlands of Israel as a place to settle.

Its more of a Canaanite evolution, then nomadic herders who found a place to settle and magically turn to an agrarian society out of the blue.

Quote:

I'm quite willing to accept the Torah view that the ancestors of the Jews, who settled in Canaan, had a long history of shuffling back and forth in the desert area of that region

Im not. This doesn't reflect the truth as much as their theology.

There wasn't much shuffling at all.

Im sure there are refracted memories from certain trans-Jordan Semitic tribes built into the scripture such as Moses, that used to go in and out of Egypt during good and bad times, but even then its so late, one cannot be certain to any extent.

I'm puzzled. Like you I'm ready to accept the Exodus myth as a grossly exaggerated depiction of scattered contacts between the proto-Jews and the Egyptians. But if you throw that out, why are you so quick to accept your rather detailed description of Judaic ethnogenesis based, as it seems to be, on the same written source?

semiopen · 07-03-2013, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

[Sarcasm aside.....

Torah is one of the most elastic words in Judaism. It encompasses everything. From the Torah (The Five Books of Moses) to the Nivim (Prophets) to ketuvim (writings) to the Mishnah to the Gemarah to the Midrash to Rashi to Heschel and Kaplan in modern times all of it is Torah. So while you can say Torah is law and have it be a "true" statement it's not accurate, it's too limiting. In reality Torah is Judaism. That's why the most universally Jewish explanation of Torah is teaching, the Teaching of Moses. If you look at Pirke Avot (A Tractate of the Talmud opens with the folllowing:

משה קיבל תורה מסיני

Moses received Torah on Sinai. Note it doesn't say the Torah, it says Torah,

I think I was speaking about the references to Torah in the Prophets (and psalms to some extent). It doesn't appear that they are talking about the Torah which the Rabbis are talking about.

Strong's H8451

Shows the various places Torah is used. Note that almost all the translations of Torah after the Pentateuch are Law.

Samuel and Judges don't mention Torah at all.

1 Kings 2:3 is interesting

Quote:

and keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to that which is written in the law [כַּכָּתוּב, בְּתוֹרַת]
of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself;

This is part of David's last rap with Solomon. Seems to me like it was inserted into 1 Kings by a redactor though.

I wold be grateful if someone could provide an educated opinion about whether this was added later or not. Anyway that is the only verse in the prophets where it seems they are talking about something written down in a book.

Mostly we are looking at stuff like 2 Kings 10:31

Quote:

But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD, [בְּתוֹרַת-יְהוָה] the God of Israel, with all his heart; he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, wherewith he made Israel to sin.

2 Kings is sort of a late example anyway though so we do find book references including the famous 2 Kings 23:24

Quote:

Moreover them that divined by a ghost or a familiar spirit, and the teraphim, and the idols, and all the detestable things that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might confirm the words of the law [דִּבְרֵי הַתּוֹרָה] which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

Books_of_Kings

Quote:

According to Jewish tradition the author of Kings was Jeremiah, whose life overlapped the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE.[9] The most common view today accepts Martin Noth's thesis that Kings concludes a unified series of books which reflect the language and theology of the Book of Deuteronomy, and which biblical scholars therefore call the Deuteronomistic history.[10] Noth argued that the History was the work of a single individual living in the 6th century, but scholars today tend to treat it as made up of at least two layers,[11] a first edition from the time of Josiah (late 7th century), promoting Josiah's religious reforms and the need for repentance, and (2) a second and final edition from the mid 6th century.[12] Further levels of editing have also been proposed, including: a late 8th century edition pointing to Hezekiah of Judah as the model for kingship; an earlier 8th century version with a similar message but identifying Jehu of Israel as the ideal king; and an even earlier version promoting the House of David as the key to national well-being.[13]

Anyway, your post -

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Also Torah means law, it seems the two meanings tend to be unclear in the prophets.

That is incorrect. Torah means teaching.

wrongly says that Torah means teaching in the prophets and completely misunderstands what I was saying (in a relatively clear manner for a change).

Nice Squirrel · 07-03-2013, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Why do the Jewish people so strongly believe that they were chosen by God, and that their laws came from God, and why have THEY survived while other countries that also may have felt 'chosen' have not?

Have requested mod action to correct spelling in title. Sorry.

What started Judiasm?

No one singular item. It was your typical polytheistic religion that had a patron god. It later took placed this god as head of the council of gods evolving into the only god worth worshiping and then the only god.

Nice Squirrel · 07-03-2013, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I do not know of any national or ethnic group that has not had some sort of myth about being chosen by god or the fates.

It's a matter of degree. It appears to me that Jews feel much more ethnocentric about their relationship with God than nearly every other country. They were scattered 2000 years ago. Yet, somehow that identity remained enough to re-unite in their homeland to form their own country. IF that is not unique or surprising, then I am ignorant, and would like to be corrected.

I am kin to the Acadian people. We have foundation myth based in events of 1755. If we continue to think of ourselves as separate and other separate us out like Jews were in Europe and the Middle East we will easily survive as a group for another 1743 years.

semiopen · 07-03-2013, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice Squirrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

It's a matter of degree. It appears to me that Jews feel much more ethnocentric about their relationship with God than nearly every other country. They were scattered 2000 years ago. Yet, somehow that identity remained enough to re-unite in their homeland to form their own country. IF that is not unique or surprising, then I am ignorant, and would like to be corrected.

I am kin to the Acadian people. We have foundation myth based in events of 1755. If we continue to think of ourselves as separate and other separate us out like Jews were in Europe and the Middle East we will easily survive as a group for another 1743 years.

I thought Dwayne Johnson was the last Akkadian.

The_Scorpion_King

Nice to see you all are still hanging in there.

Jaybees · 07-03-2013, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice Squirrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

It's a matter of degree. It appears to me that Jews feel much more ethnocentric about their relationship with God than nearly every other country. They were scattered 2000 years ago. Yet, somehow that identity remained enough to re-unite in their homeland to form their own country. IF that is not unique or surprising, then I am ignorant, and would like to be corrected.

I am kin to the Acadian people. We have foundation myth based in events of 1755. If we continue to think of ourselves as separate and other separate us out like Jews were in Europe and the Middle East we will easily survive as a group for another 1743 years.

Ugh! As it turns out, Louisiana wasn't much better than Nova Scotia. Dispersion isn't all it's cracked up to be.

outhouse · 07-03-2013, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

I'm puzzled. Like you I'm ready to accept the Exodus myth as a grossly exaggerated depiction of scattered contacts between the proto-Jews and the Egyptians. But if you throw that out, why are you so quick to accept your rather detailed description of Judaic ethnogenesis based, as it seems to be, on the same written source?

Im not my friend. No scripture can explain their ethnogenesis.

It is based on anthropology of Dever, and Finklestein and Silberman who are less biased then others.

Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites after 1200 BC end of story. For 200 years they reassembled their Canaanite origins, the Israelite culture took quite some time to develop its own identity.

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07-01-2013, 12:47 PM	#61
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I blame Darius and Cyrus. Those times by the Rivers of Babylon led not only to Temple building and the concept of nationhood, but the merging of Yhwh and Ahura Mazda. They even imported Persian priestly rituals. It is what happens when you live somewhere that gets regularly marched over. Their main export industry becomes religion. Greeks and Romans arrive and we get Monotheism v3 "Cyrusianity" Version 4 also started just down the road.

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