Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-25-2013, 09:50 PM

RE: κακοδαιμον

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

The author of this Wiki entry is obviously no expert in Greek. He certainly isn't familiar with Greek literature, let alone LSJ or the TDNT or BDAG.

"Bad" + "Daimon" = "Bad Daimon". So what?

The OP is quite specific. It's about "Daimon".

Quote:

(By the way, what do you do with this evidence in Chariton's Callirhoe?

The first step is deciding whether this evidence is before or after Matthew was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his gospel in Greek. The answer to this question is not straightforward because when Chariton wrote (BCE.CE) is not known with any degree of certainty.

The second step is to examine it.

Quote:

Book 1, chapter 1, section 16, line 6

Πλὴν καὶ ἐνταῦθά τις εὑρέθη βάσκανος δαίμων, ὥσπερ ἐκεῖ φασὶ τὴν Ἔριν.

But just as strife turned up there, according to the story, so did a malicious spirit (B.P Reardon)

Book 1, chapter 9, section 4, line 5

δαίμων γάρ τις φυλάττει τὰ ἔνδον καὶ εἰσελθεῖν ἡμῖν οὐκ ἐπιτρέπει.

There's some sort of spirit on guard here [in a tomb] who won't let us come in (a spirit, as the next verses show, provokes fear and cowardice).

Book 3, chapter 2, section 17, line 6

ἀλλ' ἐνεμέσησε καὶ ταύτῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ πάλιν ὁ βάσκανος
δαίμων ἐκεῖνος· ὅπως δέ, μικρ ὸν ὕστερον ἐρῶ.

But once more, even on that day, the evil spirit vented his spite.

Book 6, chapter 2, section 11, line 4

ἀλλ' οὐδὲ τὴν ὁποιανδήποτε κρίσιν ὁ βάσκανος δαίμων ἐπιτρέπει τελεσθῆναι.

persecuted as I am by a demon (or a "daimon" or a spirit?).

I have marked in RED the negative attributes to "daimon". Did the translator include these negative aspects along with his translation of "daimon" or are these negative aspects explicitly stated in the Greek text?

If there are no negative qualifiers to "daimon" in the text, then what I do with this evidence is point at the English translation and question its validity on a general basis. If the term "daimon" is simply rendered in translation as "spirit", without the negative qualifiers, what if any meaning is substantially changed in these extracts?

Quote:

And as to being "back" to daimon "originally" being "neutral" you are misrepresenting not only what what you quote from LSJ in your OP as saying (LSJ says no such thing) but what you yourself said about the meaning of the word in your OP.

Please give me not only

1. the earliest Greek texts in which δαίμων appears so that we can see what the "original" meaning was, but also

You offered to provide all instances of the term from Homer to the 1st century CE. I think this will be an excellent resource to be discussed so long as you provide the corresponding English translations.

Quote:

2. some evidence that in the 4th century CE -- which, unless you are going to renounce your claim about the origins of Christianity, is the era in which Christianity arose and the cultural matrix of its thought -- any non Christian Greek writer who used the word daimon thought that δαιμονες were neither good nor bad in character and/or neither beneficial nor harmful when they were encountered, but indifferent to them, which is what you are asserting we will have to find if you claim that before Christianity δαίμων was used by Greeks with a neutral sense.

Have you read the OP?

It is not necessary to restrict discussion to Greek writers since Latin writers also wrote about the "Daemon".

The OP cites Ammianus as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammianus Marcellinus (Book 21) - from the obituary to Constantius II

3. For the theologians maintain that there are associated
with all men at their birth, but without interference with
the established course of destiny, certain divinities
of that sort, as directors of their conduct; but they
have been seen by only a very few, whom their
manifold merits have raised to eminence.

4. And this oracles and writers of distinction have shown;
among the latter is also the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

5. Likewise from the immortal poems of Homer
we are given to understand that it was not the gods
of heaven that spoke with brave men, and stood by
them or aided them as they fought, but that guardians
spirits attended them; and through reliance upon
their special support, it is said, that Pythagoras,
Socrates, and Numa Pompilius became famous; also
the earlier Scipio, and (as some believe) Marius and
Octavianus, who first had the title of Augustus
conferred upon him, and Hermes Trismegistus,
Apollonius of Tyana, and Plotinus, who ventured to
discourse on this mystic theme, and to present
a profound discussion on the question by what
elements these spirits are linked with men's souls,
and taking them to their bosoms, as it were,
protect them (as long as possible) and give them
higher instruction, if they perceive that they are
pure and kept from the pollution of sin through
association with an immaculate body.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-25-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

I remember reading the Apology and being surprised that there was such a thing as a good demon.

Well Horatio Parker if the truth be known I was reading Ammianus (see the quote above, or in the OP) and also was intrigued by its import.

Quote:

Could be our current ideas about demons have been shaped as much by Hollywood and sci-fi etc as the church. Where would an author or director get an inspiration for a good demon? It might be nice to have a daimon like Socrate's, but there's not much dramatic potential there.

Is it possible that the idea of a supreme centralised monotheistic state "Holy Spirit" was ultimately derived from the Greek concept of the "daimon" as a [guardian] spirit and individual intercessor.

Is it legal to take responsibility for our own lives?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-25-2013, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

But I think the question of how did the idea of the good demon fall from the wayside is an interesting one.

Quite in line with the thesis of Charles Freeman concerning the Greek intellectual tradition (that it did not just fade away, but was suppressed),
I don't think the idea of the good daimon [Greek], or the good daemon [Latin], fell from the wayside, but rather it, too, was suppressed.

Hence the use of the term "subversion" in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

It never fell from the wayside, at least among Greek writers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

And how do you know that the word has a pejorative meaning in Christian writings when it appears without adjectives?

We have only to read Matthew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat 8:31

So the daimons besought him [Jesus], saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

The term was cast out by the Numero Uno Jesus himself.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 03-25-2013, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So what? Your thesis -- that you are trying to defend with your claims about who gave δαίμων a "negative" sense -- is that Christianity did not arise until the 4th century. So -- unless you are prepared to deny the validity of this claim -- any texts up to at least the mid 300s CE must be taken into account.

For the purposes of this thread and discussion of the OP I am prepared to deny the validity of this claim. We may assume Matthew wrote in the 1st century. I am quite capable of examining evidence within the traditional framework.

Therefore I previously divided the evidence as

a) before the 1st century
b) after the 1st century until closure of the canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

It would be excellent to see the compilation of such a complete list

If it lists only all of the nominative forms of δαίμων, it would not be a "complete" list of all of the BCE instances of the use of δαίμων.

It would form the beginning of a basis for a proper study.

Isn't that what most of us (except me of course) are doing here?

Quote:

but it would be of no use to the bulk of members in this forum unless it were to be accompanied by corresponding English translations

.

But then, if the way you've been trying to get around the Philostratus evidence shows anything, you'd just say that English transtations that showed that δαίμων was used by non Christians with a negative sense are not accurate.

One of the major points in discussing the OP is that these translations of the Greek "daimon" to the English "evil demon" may not be accurate. I am questioning the claim and asking to go through the exercise of a major examination of the evidence to see whether or not the translators are following Matthew or Homer.

Quote:

So what would be the point?

The point is not at all just what I think but what other contributors to this thread also think.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-25-2013, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

]It is not necessary to restrict discussion to Greek writers since Latin writers also wrote about the "Daemon".

The OP cites Ammianus as follows:

Ammianus Marcellinus (Book 21) - from the obituary to Constantius II]

3. For the theologians maintain that there are associated
with all men at their birth, but without interference with
the established course of destiny, certain divinities
of that sort, as directors of their conduct; but they
have been seen by only a very few, whom their
manifold merits have raised to eminence.

The Latin text of this is

Quote:

Ferunt enim theologi in lucem editis hominibus cunctis, salva firmitate fatali, huius modi quaedam velut actus rectura numina sociari, admodum tamen paucissimis visa, quos multiplices auxere virtutes.

The word translated as "divinities" is numina. There is no instance of daemon here.

L&S on this is:

Quote:

nūmen , ĭnis, n. for nuimen, root nu-; Gr. νεύω, nod; Lat. nuo in re-nuo, etc, prop.,

I.a nodding with the head, a nod: numen quasi nutus dei ac potestas dicitur, Paul. ex Fest. p. 173 Müll.—Hence, trop., a nod, i. e. command, will. *

I. In gen.: “ad numen mentis momenque moveri,” Lucr. 3, 144 (but id. 2, 632, and 4, 179, the correct reading is momine, v. Lachm.).—

II. In partic., the divine will, the will or power of the gods, divine sway (the class. signif. of the word): “numen dicunt esse imperium, dictum ab nutu: numina sunt, quojus imperium maximum esse videatur,” Varr. L. L. 7, § 85 Müll.: “deo, cujus numini parent omnia,” Cic. Div. 1, 53, 120: “multa saepe prodigia vim ejus (Cereris) numenque declarant,” Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 49, § 107: “di inmortales suo numine atque auxilio sua templa atque urbis tecta defendunt,” id. Cat. 2, 13, 29: “numen interdictumque deorum immortalium,” id. Pis. 21, 48: nox et Diana, Nunc, nunc adeste, nunc in hostiles domos Iram atque numen vertite, Hor. Epod. 5, 54.—To Fortune: “nullum numen abest, si sit prudentia,” Juv. 10, 365.—Hence, transf., of the will, might, authority of powerful persons: “flectere tenta Caesareum numen, numine, Bacche, tuo,” Ov. Tr. 5, 3, 45; cf. id. P. 4, 13, 24: “annuite, Patres Conscripti, nutum numenque vestrum invictum Campanis,” Liv. 7, 30; cf.: “quanta potestas, quanta majestas, quantum denique numen, sit historiae,” Plin. Ep. 9, 27, 1.—

B. Godhead, divinity, deity, divine majesty, etc.: “numina Palladis,” Verg. A. 3, 543: “per Dianae numina,” Hor. Epod. 17, 3: “venerantur numina nymphae, Mygdonidesque nurus,” Ov. M. 6, 44: “audis ... positas ut glaciet nives Puro numine Juppiter,” Hor. C. 3, 10, 8.—Concr., a divinity, deity, a god, goddess: “caeleste numen,” Liv. 1, 21, 1; Val. Max. 2, 4, 4; 5, 1, 3; Amm. 19, 1, 4: “summum,” Sen. Q. N. 7, 30, 4; Amm. 15, 8, 9; 17, 7, 3 al.: “templa et effigies numinum,” Tac. A. 1, 10; 1, 73; 3, 71; 15, 45; Suet. Calig. 22: “nos magna precati Numina,” Verg. A. 3, 634: “si quem Numina laeva sinunt,” id. G. 4, 7: “promissaque numine firmat,” i. e. by calling a god to witness, by an oath, Ov. M. 10, 430: “vadimus immixti haud numine nostro,” the divinity not with us, Verg. A. 2, 396, cf. sqq.: “hospes numinis Idaei,” Juv. 3, 138: “in contumeliam numinum,” Plin. Pan. 11: “Titus numinibus aequatus est,” id. ib. 35: “numinis loco habere,” Tac. G. 8: “numina quibus sacrificabat,” Val. Max. 5, 10, ext. 2: “ea numina, i. e. Apollo and Diana,” Tac. A. 3, 61; Plin. 4, 7, 12, § 25; 18, 13, 35, § 132.—Of the manes of a beloved person: “juro per illos manes, numina mei doloris,” Quint. 6 prooem. § 10 Spald.

Quote:

4. And this oracles and writers of distinction have shown;
among the latter is also the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

The text of AM 21:4 is:

Quote:

[4] Idque et oracula et auctores docuere praeclari. Inter quos est etiam Menander comicus, apud quem hi senarii duo leguntur:

ἅπαντι δαίμων ἀνδρὶ συμπαρίσταται
εὐθὺς γενομένῳ, μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου.

and the word translated as "leader" is μυσταγωγός

Note that it does not mean "guardian spirit". As the textual notes to the Loeb translation of AM observes, μυσταγωγός is the name applied to the priest who gave the initiated instruction in the mysteries. Later it was used of the guide who showed strangers the noteworthy objects in a place

CP LSJ

Quote:

μυστᾰγωγός, όν, (μύστης, ἄγω) introducing or initiating into mysteries, IG5(1).1390.149 (Andania, i b.c.), Plu.Alc.34, etc.

2. generally, teacher, guide, βίου Men.550, cf. Him.Or.15.3.

3. in Sicily, = περιηγητής, cicerone, esp. at temples, Cic.Verr.4.59.132.

4. Christian priest, Men.Prot.p111 D., Just.Nov.137.1.

Quote:

5. Likewise from the immortal poems of Homer
we are given to understand that it was not the gods
of heaven that spoke with brave men, and stood by
them or aided them as they fought, but that guardians
spirits attended them;

Latin Text:

Quote:

Itidem ex sempiternis Homeri carminibus intellegi datur, non deos caelestes cum viris fortibus collocutos, nec adfuisse pugnantibus vel iuvisse, sed familiaris genios cum eisdem versatos

The Latin expression that gets translated here as "guardian spirits" is
familiaris genios, not daemones.

L&S entry on fămĭlĭāris is

Quote:

fămĭlĭāris , e (I.abl. sing. regularly familiari; familiare, Varr. and P. Rutil. ap. Charis. p. 105 P.), adj. familia.
I. ] Of or belonging to servants (rare; only as subst.): fămĭlĭāris , is, m., a servant: “majores nostri servos (quod etiam in mimis adhuc durat) familiares appellaverunt,” Sen. Ep. 47 med.: “hujus familiae familiarem,” Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 203; id. Ep. 1, 1, 2.—
II. Of or belonging to a house, household, or family; household, domestic, family, private (freq. and class.): “fundus,” Plaut. As. 5, 2, 24; cf. “focus,” Col. 11, 1, 19: “filius,” Plaut. Capt. 2, 2, 23: “negotiis familiaribus impediti,” Auct. Her. 1, 1, 1; cf.: “res domesticae ac familiares,” Cic. Tusc. 1, 1, 2; so, “res,” the household, family affairs, property, Plaut. Stich. 1, 2, 88; Caes. B. G. 1, 18, 4; Quint. 12, 1, 6; 12, 7, 9: “ab domo ab re familiari, diutius abesse,” Liv. 5, 4, 6 al.; cf. “copiae,” Liv. 2, 16, 7: “pecuniae,” Tac. A. 4, 15: “rationes,” id. ib. 6, 16: “curae,” id. ib. 11, 7: “referam nunc interiorem ac familiarem ejus vitam,” Suet. Aug. 61: “vita,” Plaut. Pers. 1, 3, 46: “quis umquam in luctu domestico, quis in funere familiari cenavit cum toga pulla?” Cic. Vatin. 13, 31: parricidium, i. e. committed on a member of the same family, Att. ap. Cic. N. D. 3, 26, 67: “maeror,” a family grief, Plaut. Cist. 4, 2, 60: “Lar,” Cic. Quint. 27, 85; Cic. Verr. 2, 3, 11, § 27; id. Rep. 5, 5 Mos. N. cr., v. Lar; cf.: “numen Minerva,” Quint. 10, 1, 91.—
B. Transf.
1. Familiar, intimate, friendly, and (more freq.) subst., a familiar acquaintance, friend (syn.: amicus, familiaris, intimus, necessarius).
(α). With substt.: “videmus Papum Aemilium C. Luscino familiarem fuisse, etc.,” Cic. Lael. 11, 39: “biduo factus est mihi familiaris,” id. Fam. 3, 1, 2; id. Phil. 2, 32, 78; id. Rep. 2, 20; cf. id. Fam. 7, 8, 1: “amici,” Plin. Ep. 9, 34, 1; 9, 37, 1: “sermones,” Cic. Off. 2, 11, 39; id. Fam. 15, 15, 1; id. Att. 1, 9, 1; cf. “epistolae,” Quint. 1, 1, 29: “minus familiari vultu respexisse,” friendly, Suet. Caes. 78: “voltus ille,” Cic. Att. 1, 11, 1: “colloquium,” Liv. 25, 18, 5: “jam inde a puero in omnia familiaria jura assuetus,” the rights of intimacy, id. 24, 5, 9: “voluntas,” Sen. Ben. 6, 16, 1; cf.: “vox auribus meis familiaris,” Petr. 100: “familiaribus magis ei aetati exemplis,” Quint. 5, 10, 96: “exempla,” id. 7, 2, 17; 9, 4, 44: “verba regionibus quibusdam magis familiaria,” id. 8, 2, 13: “litterae,” Suet. Tib. 62.—Comp.: “qui familiarior nobis propter scriptorum multitudinem est,” Cic. de Or. 3, 19, 71: “aditus in domum,” Liv. 24, 5, 7: “frater ei (with carior),” Nep. Att. 16, 2: “quo boves familiariores bubulco fiant,” Col. 6, 2, 6: “color argenti militaribus signis,” Plin. 33, 3, 19, § 58. —Sup.: “homo amantissimus familiarissimus, conjunctissimus officiis,” Cic. Sull. 20, 57; cf. id. Att. 16, 16, F. 17: “luna terris familiarissimum sidus,” Plin. 2, 9, 6, § 41; 16, 18, 30, § 75; 16, 31, 57, § 131.—
(β). Absol.: “est ex meis domesticis atque intimis familiaribus,” Cic. Fam. 3, 1, 3: “familiaris meus,” id. Lael. 24, 89: “per C. Valerium Procillum familiarem suum cum eo colloquitur,” Caes. B. G. 1, 19, 3: “Caelii,” Cic. Cael. 25, 61: “pauci familiares,” id. Lael. 1, 2.—Sup.: “quod M. Aemulius unus est ex meis familiarissimis atque intimis maxime necessarius,” Cic. Fam. 13, 27, 2; cf.: “intimus, proximus, familiarissimus quisque,” id. Q. Fr. 1, 4, 1: “familiarissimus meus,” id. Fam. 13, 13, 1: “familiarissimi ejus,” id. Rep. 1, 9.—

2. Of or belonging to one's self, to one's own people or country (cf. domesticus); only in the lang. of the haruspices, of those parts of the animal which related to the party that sacrificed (opp. hostilis): “(haruspices) fissum familiare et vitale tractant,” Cic. Div. 2, 13, 32; cf.: “Decio caput jecinoris a familiari parte caesum haruspex dicitur ostendisse,” Liv. 8, 9, 1; cf.: “mater procurans familiare ostentum,” Liv. 26, 6, 14.—

3. Familiar, customary, habitual: “mihi familiare est omnes cogitationes meas tecum communicare,” Plin. Ep. 4, 24, 7; 2, 5, 10: “familiare est hominibus omnia sibi ignoscere,” Vell. 2, 30, 3: “fuisse statuariam artem familiarem Italiae quoque indicant,” Plin. 34, 7, 16, § 33; 35, 7, 31, § 49.—

4. Fitting, appropriate, adapted: “quae peregrina ... transferuntur, minus sunt familiaria nostro solo quam vernacula,” Col. 3, 4, 1: “familiarissimum hoc platanis,” Plin. 16, 31, 57, § 131: “hipposelinum sabulosis familiarissimum,” id. 19, 8, 48, § 163.—Hence, fămĭlĭārĭter , adv. *
1. By families: “agros in montibus Romani acceperunt familiariter,” Front. de Colon. p. 119 Goes.—
2. Familiarly, intimately, on friendly terms (freq. and class.): “hominem ignotum compellare familiariter,” Plaut. Men. 2, 3, 23; cf.: “nimium familiariter Me attrectas,” id. Rud. 2, 4, 6; id. Ep. 1, 1, 2: “nihil turpius quam cum eo bellum gerere, quicum familiariter vixeris,” Cic. Lael. 21, 77: “familiariter amicus,” Quint. 1, 2, 15: “amatum a me,” id. 10, 3, 12: “dilectus,” Plin. Ep. 9, 19, 5 et saep.: “loqui,” Cic. Div. in Caecil. 12, 37: “scribere,” id. Att. 9, 4, 1: nosse causas, i. e. to be familiarly or intimately, accurately acquainted with, Quint. 6, 4, 8; 5, 7, 7: “quod ex longinquo petitur, parum familiariter nostro solo venit,” i. e. suitable, adapted, Col. Arb. 1, 3.—Comp.: “licentius, liberius, familiarius cum domina vivere,” Cic. Cael. 23, 57: “factum,” id. de Or. 2, 3, 14; Quint. 2, 7, 3.—Sup.: “cum Verre familiarissime et amicissime vivere,” Cic. Div. in Caecil. 9, 29; Nep. Ages. 1, 1.

and on gĕnĭus is:

Quote:

gĕnĭus , i (voc. geni, Tib. 4, 5, 9 M. dub.), m. root GEN, gigno; prop., the superior or divine nature which is innate in everything, the spiritual part, spirit; hence, I.the tutelar deity or genius of a person, place, etc. (cf.: lares, penates).
I. In gen.: “genium dicebant antiqui naturalem deum uniuscujusque loci vel rei aut hominis,” Serv. Verg. G. 1, 302; cf. Voss ad loc.; Verg. A. 5, 95; Juv. 6, 22; Liv. 21, 62, 9; Mart. 7, 12, 10: “eundem esse genium et larem, multi veteres memoriae prodiderunt, in queis etiam Granius Flaccus,” Censor. de Die Nat. 3, 2; Prud. adv. Symm. 2, 369; 444: “scit Genius, natale comes qui temperat astrum, Naturae deus humanae, mortalis in unum Quodque caput, vultu mutabilis, albus et ater,” Hor. Ep. 2, 2, 187: “genius tuus malus,” Flor. 4, 7, 8. —In urgent petitions and in oaths appeals were made to the Genius of the person addressed, or to that of some eminent person: “te per Genium ... Obsecro et obtestor,” Hor. Ep. 1, 7, 94; cf. Sen. Ep. 12, 12; Tib. 4, 5, 8; Suet. Calig. 27; Dig. 12, 2, 13, § 6.— “On festal occasions the Genius was propitiated: cras Genium mero Curabis et porco bimestri,” Hor. C. 3, 17, 14; id. Ep. 2, 1, 144; id. A. P. 210; Pers. 2, 3; Ov. Am. 1, 8, 94 et saep.; cf. Tib. 1, 7, 49: “magne Geni, cape dona libens votisque faveto,” id. 4, 5, 9: “acceptus Geniis December (because the Saturnalian festivals occurred in it),” Ov. F. 3, 58: “genium loci ... precatur,” Verg. A. 7, 136: “GENIO LOCI,” Inscr. Orell. 343 sq.; 1697; 1701: “COLONIAE,” ib. 367; 1693 sq.: “MVNICIPII,” ib. 689; 1690 sq.: “CVRIAE,” ib. 1120: “FORI VINARII,” ib. 4087: “THEATRI,” ib. 1713: “Lateranus deus est focorum et Genius,” Arn. 4, 6 et saep.: “Priapi,” Petr. 21: “Famae,” Mart. 7, 12, 10: “JOVIS,” Inscr. Orell. 1730; 2488: “DEORVM,” ib. 1730.—

II. In partic.
A. With respect to the enjoyment of life.

1. The spirit of social enjoyment, fondness for good living, taste, appetite, inclination: “isti qui cum geniis suis belligerant, parcipromi,” Plaut. Truc. 1, 2, 81; cf.: “egomet me defraudavi Animumque meum geniumque meum,” id. Aul. 4, 9, 15; and: “suum defrudans genium,” sacrificing his inclinations, Ter. Phorm. 1, 1, 10 Ruhnk.: “sapis multum ad genium,” Plaut. Pers. 1, 3, 28: “hic quidem meliorem Genium tuum non facies,” id. Stich. 4, 2, 42: “nunc et amico meo prosperabo et genio meo multa bona faciam,” id. Pers. 2, 3, 11: “indulge genio: carpamus dulcia,” id. ib. 5, 151.—Hence,

2. A term used by parasites for entertainer, patron: “ecquis est, qui mihi commonstret Phaedromum genium meum?” Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 22; 5, 2, 29; id. Capt. 4, 2, 99; id. Men. 1, 2, 29. —

B. Of the intellect, wit, talents, genius (very rare): “nemo mathematicus genium indemnatus habebit,” Juv. 6, 562: “victurus genium debet habere liber,” Mart. 6, 60, 10. —Hence, in a pun with the preced. signif., Mart. 7, 78, 7.

So why Pete thinks -- as he evidently does (why would he cite it otherwise?) -- that what's found in AM 21 is relevant for determining what the Latin word daemon meant is not clear.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-25-2013, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I don't think the idea of the good daimon [Greek], or the good daemon [Latin], fell from the wayside, but rather it, too, was suppressed.

Are you saying that there are no instances of the use of daimon in the whole of the corpus of early Christian writings -- or any recognition on the part of EC writers -- that the word was and could be used without its pejorative sense?

It's a yes or no question.

And are you also saying that there are no non Christian Latin texts that use daemon with a pejorative sense? That every instance of the use of daemons in Latin is with the good sense?

Again, a yes or no question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

And how do you know that the word has a pejorative meaning in Christian writings when it appears without adjectives?

We have only to read Matthew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat 8:31

So the daimons besought him [Jesus], saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

The term was cast out by the Numero Uno Jesus himself.

An expression which is also found in the Philostratus text I cited which is clearly an exorcism story.

.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 03-26-2013, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

]It is not necessary to restrict discussion to Greek writers since Latin writers also wrote about the "Daemon".

The OP cites Ammianus as follows:

Ammianus Marcellinus (Book 21) - from the obituary to Constantius II]

3. For the theologians maintain that there are associated
with all men at their birth, but without interference with
the established course of destiny, certain divinities
of that sort, as directors of their conduct; but they
have been seen by only a very few, whom their
manifold merits have raised to eminence.

The Latin text of this is

Quote:

Ferunt enim theologi in lucem editis hominibus cunctis, salva firmitate fatali, huius modi quaedam velut actus rectura numina sociari, admodum tamen paucissimis visa, quos multiplices auxere virtutes.

The word translated as "divinities" is numina. There is no instance of daemon here.

L&S on this is:

Quote:

nūmen , ĭnis, n. for nuimen, root nu-; Gr. νεύω, nod; Lat. nuo in re-nuo, etc, prop.,

I.a nodding with the head, a nod: numen quasi nutus dei ac potestas dicitur, Paul. ex Fest. p. 173 Müll.—Hence, trop., a nod, i. e. command, will. *

I. In gen.: “ad numen mentis momenque moveri,” Lucr. 3, 144 (but id. 2, 632, and 4, 179, the correct reading is momine, v. Lachm.).—

II. In partic., the divine will, the will or power of the gods, divine sway (the class. signif. of the word): “numen dicunt esse imperium, dictum ab nutu: numina sunt, quojus imperium maximum esse videatur,” Varr. L. L. 7, § 85 Müll.: “deo, cujus numini parent omnia,” Cic. Div. 1, 53, 120: “multa saepe prodigia vim ejus (Cereris) numenque declarant,” Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 49, § 107: “di inmortales suo numine atque auxilio sua templa atque urbis tecta defendunt,” id. Cat. 2, 13, 29: “numen interdictumque deorum immortalium,” id. Pis. 21, 48: nox et Diana, Nunc, nunc adeste, nunc in hostiles domos Iram atque numen vertite, Hor. Epod. 5, 54.—To Fortune: “nullum numen abest, si sit prudentia,” Juv. 10, 365.—Hence, transf., of the will, might, authority of powerful persons: “flectere tenta Caesareum numen, numine, Bacche, tuo,” Ov. Tr. 5, 3, 45; cf. id. P. 4, 13, 24: “annuite, Patres Conscripti, nutum numenque vestrum invictum Campanis,” Liv. 7, 30; cf.: “quanta potestas, quanta majestas, quantum denique numen, sit historiae,” Plin. Ep. 9, 27, 1.—

B. Godhead, divinity, deity, divine majesty, etc.: “numina Palladis,” Verg. A. 3, 543: “per Dianae numina,” Hor. Epod. 17, 3: “venerantur numina nymphae, Mygdonidesque nurus,” Ov. M. 6, 44: “audis ... positas ut glaciet nives Puro numine Juppiter,” Hor. C. 3, 10, 8.—Concr., a divinity, deity, a god, goddess: “caeleste numen,” Liv. 1, 21, 1; Val. Max. 2, 4, 4; 5, 1, 3; Amm. 19, 1, 4: “summum,” Sen. Q. N. 7, 30, 4; Amm. 15, 8, 9; 17, 7, 3 al.: “templa et effigies numinum,” Tac. A. 1, 10; 1, 73; 3, 71; 15, 45; Suet. Calig. 22: “nos magna precati Numina,” Verg. A. 3, 634: “si quem Numina laeva sinunt,” id. G. 4, 7: “promissaque numine firmat,” i. e. by calling a god to witness, by an oath, Ov. M. 10, 430: “vadimus immixti haud numine nostro,” the divinity not with us, Verg. A. 2, 396, cf. sqq.: “hospes numinis Idaei,” Juv. 3, 138: “in contumeliam numinum,” Plin. Pan. 11: “Titus numinibus aequatus est,” id. ib. 35: “numinis loco habere,” Tac. G. 8: “numina quibus sacrificabat,” Val. Max. 5, 10, ext. 2: “ea numina, i. e. Apollo and Diana,” Tac. A. 3, 61; Plin. 4, 7, 12, § 25; 18, 13, 35, § 132.—Of the manes of a beloved person: “juro per illos manes, numina mei doloris,” Quint. 6 prooem. § 10 Spald.

Quote:

4. And this oracles and writers of distinction have shown;
among the latter is also the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

The text of AM 21:4 is:

Quote:

[4] Idque et oracula et auctores docuere praeclari. Inter quos est etiam Menander comicus, apud quem hi senarii duo leguntur:

ἅπαντι δαίμων ἀνδρὶ συμπαρίσταται
εὐθὺς γενομένῳ, μυσταγωγὸς τοῦ βίου.

and the word translated as "leader" is μυσταγωγός

Note that it does not mean "guardian spirit". As the textual notes to the Loeb translation of AM observes, μυσταγωγός is the name applied to the priest who gave the initiated instruction in the mysteries. Later it was used of the guide who showed strangers the noteworthy objects in a place

CP LSJ

Quote:

μυστᾰγωγός, όν, (μύστης, ἄγω) introducing or initiating into mysteries, IG5(1).1390.149 (Andania, i b.c.), Plu.Alc.34, etc.

2. generally, teacher, guide, βίου Men.550, cf. Him.Or.15.3.

3. in Sicily, = περιηγητής, cicerone, esp. at temples, Cic.Verr.4.59.132.

4. Christian priest, Men.Prot.p111 D., Just.Nov.137.1.

Quote:

5. Likewise from the immortal poems of Homer
we are given to understand that it was not the gods
of heaven that spoke with brave men, and stood by
them or aided them as they fought, but that guardians
spirits attended them;

Latin Text:

Quote:

Itidem ex sempiternis Homeri carminibus intellegi datur, non deos caelestes cum viris fortibus collocutos, nec adfuisse pugnantibus vel iuvisse, sed familiaris genios cum eisdem versatos

The Latin expression that gets translated here as "guardian spirits" is
familiaris genios, not daemones.

L&S entry on fămĭlĭāris is

Quote:

fămĭlĭāris , e (I.abl. sing. regularly familiari; familiare, Varr. and P. Rutil. ap. Charis. p. 105 P.), adj. familia.
I. ] Of or belonging to servants (rare; only as subst.): fămĭlĭāris , is, m., a servant: “majores nostri servos (quod etiam in mimis adhuc durat) familiares appellaverunt,” Sen. Ep. 47 med.: “hujus familiae familiarem,” Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 203; id. Ep. 1, 1, 2.—
II. Of or belonging to a house, household, or family; household, domestic, family, private (freq. and class.): “fundus,” Plaut. As. 5, 2, 24; cf. “focus,” Col. 11, 1, 19: “filius,” Plaut. Capt. 2, 2, 23: “negotiis familiaribus impediti,” Auct. Her. 1, 1, 1; cf.: “res domesticae ac familiares,” Cic. Tusc. 1, 1, 2; so, “res,” the household, family affairs, property, Plaut. Stich. 1, 2, 88; Caes. B. G. 1, 18, 4; Quint. 12, 1, 6; 12, 7, 9: “ab domo ab re familiari, diutius abesse,” Liv. 5, 4, 6 al.; cf. “copiae,” Liv. 2, 16, 7: “pecuniae,” Tac. A. 4, 15: “rationes,” id. ib. 6, 16: “curae,” id. ib. 11, 7: “referam nunc interiorem ac familiarem ejus vitam,” Suet. Aug. 61: “vita,” Plaut. Pers. 1, 3, 46: “quis umquam in luctu domestico, quis in funere familiari cenavit cum toga pulla?” Cic. Vatin. 13, 31: parricidium, i. e. committed on a member of the same family, Att. ap. Cic. N. D. 3, 26, 67: “maeror,” a family grief, Plaut. Cist. 4, 2, 60: “Lar,” Cic. Quint. 27, 85; Cic. Verr. 2, 3, 11, § 27; id. Rep. 5, 5 Mos. N. cr., v. Lar; cf.: “numen Minerva,” Quint. 10, 1, 91.—
B. Transf.
1. Familiar, intimate, friendly, and (more freq.) subst., a familiar acquaintance, friend (syn.: amicus, familiaris, intimus, necessarius).
(α). With substt.: “videmus Papum Aemilium C. Luscino familiarem fuisse, etc.,” Cic. Lael. 11, 39: “biduo factus est mihi familiaris,” id. Fam. 3, 1, 2; id. Phil. 2, 32, 78; id. Rep. 2, 20; cf. id. Fam. 7, 8, 1: “amici,” Plin. Ep. 9, 34, 1; 9, 37, 1: “sermones,” Cic. Off. 2, 11, 39; id. Fam. 15, 15, 1; id. Att. 1, 9, 1; cf. “epistolae,” Quint. 1, 1, 29: “minus familiari vultu respexisse,” friendly, Suet. Caes. 78: “voltus ille,” Cic. Att. 1, 11, 1: “colloquium,” Liv. 25, 18, 5: “jam inde a puero in omnia familiaria jura assuetus,” the rights of intimacy, id. 24, 5, 9: “voluntas,” Sen. Ben. 6, 16, 1; cf.: “vox auribus meis familiaris,” Petr. 100: “familiaribus magis ei aetati exemplis,” Quint. 5, 10, 96: “exempla,” id. 7, 2, 17; 9, 4, 44: “verba regionibus quibusdam magis familiaria,” id. 8, 2, 13: “litterae,” Suet. Tib. 62.—Comp.: “qui familiarior nobis propter scriptorum multitudinem est,” Cic. de Or. 3, 19, 71: “aditus in domum,” Liv. 24, 5, 7: “frater ei (with carior),” Nep. Att. 16, 2: “quo boves familiariores bubulco fiant,” Col. 6, 2, 6: “color argenti militaribus signis,” Plin. 33, 3, 19, § 58. —Sup.: “homo amantissimus familiarissimus, conjunctissimus officiis,” Cic. Sull. 20, 57; cf. id. Att. 16, 16, F. 17: “luna terris familiarissimum sidus,” Plin. 2, 9, 6, § 41; 16, 18, 30, § 75; 16, 31, 57, § 131.—
(β). Absol.: “est ex meis domesticis atque intimis familiaribus,” Cic. Fam. 3, 1, 3: “familiaris meus,” id. Lael. 24, 89: “per C. Valerium Procillum familiarem suum cum eo colloquitur,” Caes. B. G. 1, 19, 3: “Caelii,” Cic. Cael. 25, 61: “pauci familiares,” id. Lael. 1, 2.—Sup.: “quod M. Aemulius unus est ex meis familiarissimis atque intimis maxime necessarius,” Cic. Fam. 13, 27, 2; cf.: “intimus, proximus, familiarissimus quisque,” id. Q. Fr. 1, 4, 1: “familiarissimus meus,” id. Fam. 13, 13, 1: “familiarissimi ejus,” id. Rep. 1, 9.—

2. Of or belonging to one's self, to one's own people or country (cf. domesticus); only in the lang. of the haruspices, of those parts of the animal which related to the party that sacrificed (opp. hostilis): “(haruspices) fissum familiare et vitale tractant,” Cic. Div. 2, 13, 32; cf.: “Decio caput jecinoris a familiari parte caesum haruspex dicitur ostendisse,” Liv. 8, 9, 1; cf.: “mater procurans familiare ostentum,” Liv. 26, 6, 14.—

3. Familiar, customary, habitual: “mihi familiare est omnes cogitationes meas tecum communicare,” Plin. Ep. 4, 24, 7; 2, 5, 10: “familiare est hominibus omnia sibi ignoscere,” Vell. 2, 30, 3: “fuisse statuariam artem familiarem Italiae quoque indicant,” Plin. 34, 7, 16, § 33; 35, 7, 31, § 49.—

4. Fitting, appropriate, adapted: “quae peregrina ... transferuntur, minus sunt familiaria nostro solo quam vernacula,” Col. 3, 4, 1: “familiarissimum hoc platanis,” Plin. 16, 31, 57, § 131: “hipposelinum sabulosis familiarissimum,” id. 19, 8, 48, § 163.—Hence, fămĭlĭārĭter , adv. *
1. By families: “agros in montibus Romani acceperunt familiariter,” Front. de Colon. p. 119 Goes.—
2. Familiarly, intimately, on friendly terms (freq. and class.): “hominem ignotum compellare familiariter,” Plaut. Men. 2, 3, 23; cf.: “nimium familiariter Me attrectas,” id. Rud. 2, 4, 6; id. Ep. 1, 1, 2: “nihil turpius quam cum eo bellum gerere, quicum familiariter vixeris,” Cic. Lael. 21, 77: “familiariter amicus,” Quint. 1, 2, 15: “amatum a me,” id. 10, 3, 12: “dilectus,” Plin. Ep. 9, 19, 5 et saep.: “loqui,” Cic. Div. in Caecil. 12, 37: “scribere,” id. Att. 9, 4, 1: nosse causas, i. e. to be familiarly or intimately, accurately acquainted with, Quint. 6, 4, 8; 5, 7, 7: “quod ex longinquo petitur, parum familiariter nostro solo venit,” i. e. suitable, adapted, Col. Arb. 1, 3.—Comp.: “licentius, liberius, familiarius cum domina vivere,” Cic. Cael. 23, 57: “factum,” id. de Or. 2, 3, 14; Quint. 2, 7, 3.—Sup.: “cum Verre familiarissime et amicissime vivere,” Cic. Div. in Caecil. 9, 29; Nep. Ages. 1, 1.

and on gĕnĭus is:

Quote:

gĕnĭus , i (voc. geni, Tib. 4, 5, 9 M. dub.), m. root GEN, gigno; prop., the superior or divine nature which is innate in everything, the spiritual part, spirit; hence, I.the tutelar deity or genius of a person, place, etc. (cf.: lares, penates).
I. In gen.: “genium dicebant antiqui naturalem deum uniuscujusque loci vel rei aut hominis,” Serv. Verg. G. 1, 302; cf. Voss ad loc.; Verg. A. 5, 95; Juv. 6, 22; Liv. 21, 62, 9; Mart. 7, 12, 10: “eundem esse genium et larem, multi veteres memoriae prodiderunt, in queis etiam Granius Flaccus,” Censor. de Die Nat. 3, 2; Prud. adv. Symm. 2, 369; 444: “scit Genius, natale comes qui temperat astrum, Naturae deus humanae, mortalis in unum Quodque caput, vultu mutabilis, albus et ater,” Hor. Ep. 2, 2, 187: “genius tuus malus,” Flor. 4, 7, 8. —In urgent petitions and in oaths appeals were made to the Genius of the person addressed, or to that of some eminent person: “te per Genium ... Obsecro et obtestor,” Hor. Ep. 1, 7, 94; cf. Sen. Ep. 12, 12; Tib. 4, 5, 8; Suet. Calig. 27; Dig. 12, 2, 13, § 6.— “On festal occasions the Genius was propitiated: cras Genium mero Curabis et porco bimestri,” Hor. C. 3, 17, 14; id. Ep. 2, 1, 144; id. A. P. 210; Pers. 2, 3; Ov. Am. 1, 8, 94 et saep.; cf. Tib. 1, 7, 49: “magne Geni, cape dona libens votisque faveto,” id. 4, 5, 9: “acceptus Geniis December (because the Saturnalian festivals occurred in it),” Ov. F. 3, 58: “genium loci ... precatur,” Verg. A. 7, 136: “GENIO LOCI,” Inscr. Orell. 343 sq.; 1697; 1701: “COLONIAE,” ib. 367; 1693 sq.: “MVNICIPII,” ib. 689; 1690 sq.: “CVRIAE,” ib. 1120: “FORI VINARII,” ib. 4087: “THEATRI,” ib. 1713: “Lateranus deus est focorum et Genius,” Arn. 4, 6 et saep.: “Priapi,” Petr. 21: “Famae,” Mart. 7, 12, 10: “JOVIS,” Inscr. Orell. 1730; 2488: “DEORVM,” ib. 1730.—

II. In partic.
A. With respect to the enjoyment of life.

1. The spirit of social enjoyment, fondness for good living, taste, appetite, inclination: “isti qui cum geniis suis belligerant, parcipromi,” Plaut. Truc. 1, 2, 81; cf.: “egomet me defraudavi Animumque meum geniumque meum,” id. Aul. 4, 9, 15; and: “suum defrudans genium,” sacrificing his inclinations, Ter. Phorm. 1, 1, 10 Ruhnk.: “sapis multum ad genium,” Plaut. Pers. 1, 3, 28: “hic quidem meliorem Genium tuum non facies,” id. Stich. 4, 2, 42: “nunc et amico meo prosperabo et genio meo multa bona faciam,” id. Pers. 2, 3, 11: “indulge genio: carpamus dulcia,” id. ib. 5, 151.—Hence,

2. A term used by parasites for entertainer, patron: “ecquis est, qui mihi commonstret Phaedromum genium meum?” Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 22; 5, 2, 29; id. Capt. 4, 2, 99; id. Men. 1, 2, 29. —

B. Of the intellect, wit, talents, genius (very rare): “nemo mathematicus genium indemnatus habebit,” Juv. 6, 562: “victurus genium debet habere liber,” Mart. 6, 60, 10. —Hence, in a pun with the preced. signif., Mart. 7, 78, 7.

So why Pete thinks -- as he evidently does (why would he cite it otherwise?) -- that what's found in AM 21 is relevant for determining what the Latin word daemon meant is not clear.

Ammianus quotes from the poet Menander in Greek.

In that quote is the citation to "daimon"/"daemon".

BTW thanks for the L&S explanatory notes on the related material.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-26-2013, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Ammianus quotes from the poet Menander in Greek.

Yes. So what? Are there no other Latin authors besides AM who quote Greek writers?

Quote:

In that quote is the citation to [of?] "daimon"

Yes. So what?

Quote:

/"daemon".

There is no citation of daemon in the AM text, let alone in his quote of Menander. What you adduce is the word that the English translator of AM used for the Menander's δαίμων. So you are once again misrepresenting what ancient texts say.

And if all you wanted to show us was that Menander used the word δαίμων and that Latin authors knew of Greek texts which contained δαίμων, why did you give us the all the other material from AM that you did and bold passages within that material. What did you think that these passages demonstrated?

Jeffrey

Robert Tulip · 03-26-2013, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

The statement discussed above

Have I missed something??? What statement? What discussion?

I first raised this ethos anthropos daimon aphorism from Heraclitus at #216 Pete responded at #217 exploring this idea of demons as a pivotal issue by which the victorious Christians actively suppressed the Greek intellectual tradition. The key theme here is that the new Christian view that all demons are bad was central to their claim that pagan religion is false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

The statement you mention as discussed above was discussed by a Heraclitian:huh::huh: statement?

Sorry, not sure what you are getting at with your smilies. The quote is from the famous Presocratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Our daimon or guardian angel sets our fate, which can be good or bad.

So it does have a non neutral meaning -- a force (but "guardian angel" ??? really? where do you get that?) that determines our destiny!

There are many texts comparing daimon to guardian angel, as I mentioned in my referenced post. This is the translation used by Guy Davenport in Herakleitos and Diogenes. Why Jeffrey do you totally invert the meaning of what I said? There is nothing in my post to support your inference of a non-neutral meaning. The term destiny is morally neutral by itself.

However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_...cal_mythology) says "Daemons are good or benevolent nature spirits".

Hesiod says "(Op. 121–126; cf. 252–255) the souls of the men of the Golden Age have "by the will of Zeus" become "benevolent daimones on earth (δαίμονες ἐπιχθόνιοι), watchers of mortal men," invisibly roaming the earth, dispensing riches like kings and taking note of right and wrong. They are powers working among men "on earth"; hence they are called ἐπιχθόνιοι, in contrast to the ἐπουράνιοι, "celestial," gods whose sphere of activity extends to the inaccessible realms beyond this world. Because of their lofty state—they have raised from human mortality to godlike immortality—Hesiod describes them as daimones"
http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-...96/daimon.html

Hesiod's vision of the Golden Age gives an indication of an earlier Greek vision of nature as good, contrasting to the prevailing Christian assumption that nature is evil. This makes sense against the history of the Christian condemnation of natural theology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

this text is not an instance of what I asked you to produce to show me that in BCE Greek literature the term daimon did not by itself reveal whether the entity described was good or evil or neutral, until Christianity gave demon a purely evil meaning. Jeffrey

None of the sources you gave supports your assertion here Jeffrey. Have you found any pre-christian text where a daimon is assumed to be evil without some adjectival qualifier indicating that?

The change in the meaning of demon to pure evil is a massive example of the Orwellian nature of the Christian church, how it intentionally redefined the meaning of key mythic terms in order to control history.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-26-2013, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

None of the sources you gave supports your assertion here Jeffrey. Have you found any pre-christian text where a daimon is assumed [better, presented] to be evil without some adjectival qualifier indicating that?

Yes, and I've listed them. As does LSJ.

Now let me ask you -- it is correct to say that there is no such adjectival modifier as you claim is necessary to show that a writer who uses δαίμων means "evil spirit" in Matthew, yes?

So by your own logic, isn't is wholly illegitimate to say, as you do, that Matthew assumes, and is actually saying, that the δαίμων he mentions is "evil"?.

The very thing that you say is necessary to show that he makes this assumption and says that it is evil is absent from Mathew. So aren't you engaging in petitio principii, let alone contradicting yourself, when you claim that it is certain that Matthew is using δαίμων to mean "evil spirit?

Quote:

The change in the meaning of demon to pure evil [???] is a massive example of the Orwellian nature of the Christian church, how it intentionally redefined the meaning of key mythic terms in order to control history.

I'll ask again: are you claiming that there are no instances in the corpus of early Christian writings that show an awareness on the part of Christians that δαίμων had (or could have) a meaning other than "evil spirit"?

Jeffrey

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.